Switchers

Hi, I am in charge of a video production at my church. We use the Videonics MX-1 Digital Video Mixer. I love it it is easy to use and has great features. Just have on question. I use the chroma key to display text over video (i use powerpoint) it is great exept when i want to change camera angles i have to undo the chroma key and reaply it with the new angle. Is there a way to keep the chroma effect when I change the camera sources?
Posted by Jared Mitchell on Sep 29, 2000.


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Unfortunately, no. The best solution to this problem is to buy a keyer, like the one we sell, and place it "downstream" on the output of the mixer.

Let me know how else I can help!

Tim Eason
www.churchmedia.net
"Helping your church reach out through media..."
Posted by Tim Eason on Sep 29, 2000.


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Sounds like you should maybe make the next step in your prodution and get another video mixer so you have a "Master Production Mix" and a Video Production Mix" That's what we have gone to because I was encountering the same problem - so now if have the flexibility to send anything I want to our Sanctuary projectors - Live camera, an edited video, just pwr point, etc. You might want to consider it.
Posted by Dennis Choy on Oct 25, 2000.

Looking for any recommendations for a simple inexpensive video switcher. Analog video would be fine. A preview monitor would be a nice extra if they make such an animal.

What are the key features I should be looking for?

Are there any sites that I can research this further?

Thanks!

Nate Farris
St. John's Lutheran
Lombard, IL
Posted by Nathan on Oct 18, 2000.


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We're using the Videonics MX1. It's analog (converts to digital inside), has a preview output (which is annoying - I'll tell you more later), and it's pretty cheap. There's a new version, the MX-Pro, which is still analog only, but has more effects, and other stuff I don't remember right now.

The reason I said the preview output is annoying is because it likes to be in the mode which shows a small version of each of your inputs, updated something like twice a second. It also shows you at the bottom 2/3 of the screen all the effects you can choose from (of course, everybody knows you won't use much more than a simple dissolve doing live work). It's nice, just to be able to see if you have a shot, but you can't tell focus, iris, etc., with the mini-previews. The more annoying thing is that if you switch the preview output to show a full-screen version of your preview bus, the main video output jerks every time you do a transition, or even a cut from one input to the next. That makes the full-screen preview mode basically useless. Also, the fader bar is pretty tricky to get used to.

There are other analog switchers out there. Panasonic makes a nice series, and for about $3,000 you can get their MX-50, which has audio mixing capabilites (including 2 XLRs, I think). I've never used this switcher, but I hear it's pretty nice.

For now, I'm waiting for my Video Toaster NT to be upgraded so I can add a 24 composite/8 S-Video/8 component input switcher.

Posted by David Sheneman on Oct 19, 2000.


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We used the MX-1 for about a year and were very unhappy with its quality. In about a year's time, we had the glitching problems, etc... that David talked about, and also suffered severe effects problems, probably due to a cracked circuit board, that rendered the MX1 useless.

We got smart, spent some extra money, and got the Panasonic MX50. We found one used and had it modified for better S/N ratios and added proc amps to each bus. The cost came in around $3200 - about what they cost new without the modifications. We love it! It is rock solid, never creates video artifacts, and does a beautiful job with freezing frames (rather than fields, like the MX1) so we can edit our Powerpoint programs without anyone noticing. In addition, by freezing the output, we can dissolve each slide into each other.
Posted by Chris Monaghan on Oct 19, 2000.


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If you want a good mixer at a low cost, look for a used Panasonic WJ AVE-5 $300 to $500 or WJ AVE-7$500 to$700. I would steer clear of the videonics, they are very problematic. If you can find a MX-50 it is great for live mixing- professional T-bar, master fade button, 4 inputs, downstream keyer, built in audio mixer, audio level meter. I too had mine modified by Bob Rall in San Diego, I really like the ability to correct the color and hue for the A or B bus when editing or digitizing. If you need 4 channel color correction, add the Sima color corrector to each input. these are about $100 each and in the long run may be cheaper than the complete "Bob Rall" modification like I did. bought the Videonics MX Pro and sold it as fast as I could. EO
Posted by Eric on Nov 16, 2000.


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I really love my VIDEONICS MX-PRO. I have had no problem at anytime using it. I use it mostly for live production. It works great. As to the Panasonic I think the MX-PRO is better. My opinion. I guess you will have to sort this out on your own.

In His Grip,
Jerry
Posted by Jerry Hoffman on Nov 17, 2000.

Does anyone on this board have subject I'm going to rent one for our 9/11 community service, I just went to look at it today, and I have a few questions the rental guy didn't have answers to. I went to panasonic's web site, and can't get the answers there. I'll take it off group if someone can help me.

Here are the questions:
1. It has a Prog1 & Prog2 out: does this mean that the video out goes to both outputs simultaneously?

Why? I need to mix 2 cameras (for iMag) + 1 computer (yes, I'm down-converting my computer to video, I can't afford a real mixer). I need one output to go to the projector (via S-Video) and one to go to the school's CCTV system. I'm unsure if my projector has a 'monitor' out, have to look this weekend.

2. The MX-50 has S-Video & BNC inputs (+ audio); the MX-20 (iaw the web site) only has BNC. Is it a simple RadioShack connector which can convert S-Video to BNC, or am I missing something?

3. These all seem overkill - I don't need keying, PIP, strobes and 9,000 effects: I want just a fade or any simple seamless switch between sources. Should I rent something else?

thanks for the help.

Brian Busch
Director of Worship & Praise
Purcellville Baptist Church, VA
Posted by Brian Busch on Aug 30, 2002.

My question is: what is the most inexpensive way our team at CentrePointe can add a fade effect between video/cpu/camera/black. We feel the fade is crucial for our work to appear like TV and not computer. We cannot afford the Panasonic MX-20 or MX-50... but I would be willing to personally pay for something more inexpensive that does the job.

I've heard people talk about an entry level Videonics MX-1 model for about $895. Will this do the trick or will we need more features?

Also, which scan convertor would you recommend? About how much $$ is it?

Posted by Steve Fridsma on Sep 29, 2000.


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Being a worship leader and a guy who sells the projectors into lots of churches; I run into the issue of mixing video with data constantly. I know that the only reasonable answer so far is down converting the data to put everything into the video stream, but I cringe when I realize people are paying big bucks for "high resolution" and not making full use of the resolution. The only option I see is wider adaptation of digital video, allowing churches to master everything to the PC, rather than the video mixer. I understand that products like "Presentation Manager" software and hardware allow for integration of video into the PC.

I sure would like to see people taking advantage of the higher resolution, while still maintaining the versatillity of video.

Thanks for the great web-site.

Russ Hart
Data Projections, Inc.
Education & Church Sales

Posted by Russ Hart on Sep 29, 2000.

This is my first post to this forum, I am a worship leader (16 plus years) and an A/V salesperson (10 years). I've been struggling with the issue of having to down-grade data to video in order to do smooth switching between sources. I am in the middle of an install now in which I am playing with the idea of scaling the video and using a data switcher. I have several ideas, but would like input from others. Thanks for your input!
Posted by Russ Hart on Oct 26, 2000.


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Welcome, Russ! There are a couple of devices that accomplish what you are looking for. The IN1404 from Inline has 4 inputs and accepts video and computer signals. It scales the video so that switches are smooth. Check it out at:
http://www.inlineinc.com/products/si...pdf/IN1404.pdf

From Extron is the new 408 hi-res MIXER. It has 8 inputs and will actually FADE between scaled video and computer. Pricey, though. Check it out at:
http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=sgs408

Prices will continue to drop on this type of equipment as signal types start to be standardized in the hi-res end. It's just a matter of time....

Good Luck!

-Tim Eason
Posted by Tim Eason on Oct 26, 2000.

Hello all,

My church is about to dive a little deeper into the media aspect of ministry, and we're looking for clean and seamless fades from powerpoint to video clips on a VCR, all to be displayed with our projector. I've done some research, and scan converters seem to be the way to go.

However, there's some talk of a loss of quality when the computer signal is converted into an interlaced TV-compatible signal...what's the best way to do this? i looked at the extron 408 (too expensive), and the inline module that Tim Eason recommended in this forum...

does anyone have any suggestions? our budget for this is in the $5k range...

Also, we will be using a rear projection screen...so our projector will be up on stage, while our video engineer will be back at front of house with the sound man...does anyone have a similar setup, and do you have a massively long computer monitor cable, or do you have a massively long s-video cable?

thanks for any help!

Brian Cho
New Life Fellowship
Seattle, WA
Posted by Brian Cho on Nov 7, 2000.


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Here at North Park we are in exactly the same situation - without spending a fortune, how do we smoothly move from video to powerpoint to live video . . .
Even trying to show a video clip without "ugly" starts and finishes is tough. You can fade sound in and out-but video?
I see the day coming when we invest in the personnel and equipment for "professional" production - but until then, is there no easy way to make these transitions?
Bob Cottrill
Posted by Bob Cottrill on Nov 7, 2000.


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This seems to be the biggest issue in the groundswell of introducing projection systems to the area of worship in the church. As mentioned in the two previous posts, getting a data quality image can be done with a relatively cost effective video scaler. The problem comes when we want to do smooth transitions between sources. This is why most churches are still down converting data to video and using the plethora of video switching devices out there to provide smooth and varied transistions. I look forward to seeing a "data" switcher that gives us a variety of transitions and which comes in at a sub $500-700.00 cost. Until then, I have been using the DVDO scaler and an Extron VGA switcher, just essentially crash switching between the computer input and the up-scaled video source.
If anybody knows of a reasonably priced data switcher with a variety of transitions, let us all know!

God bless you all.
Posted by Russ Hart on Nov 7, 2000.


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If you are looking for a video mixer you might consider the Videonics MX1 (I saw one on Ebay for around $500.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...item=488443960) or the Roland V-5 (Look at www.edirol.com).
Posted by Bob DeRuiter on Nov 7, 2000.


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Hi Bob;

Are you familiar with overlaying video into PowerPoint using the ATI All-In-Wonder card? The background in PP can be made "invisible" to a video input that is available on the card. I haven't used this technique; however, I know of several who do. The technique has several major benefits-- an additional cable from the VCR to the projector is not required, and manually switching the inputs on the projector is not required. I would like to experiment with this sometime, but it would seem to me that switching from a PP presentation to video (live or recorded) could easily be done with some of PP's slide transitions.

If you need more info on the ATI card and the technique, just let me know. Is anyone here using this?

Take care!

Dave Hooker
Tech Ministries
Faith Baptist
St. Thomas, Ontario
Canada
Posted by Dave Hooker on Nov 8, 2000.


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I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, but you you're talking about runnung live or taped video along with PowerPoint at the same time, I would like to know how you are doing it and how it works. Currently we are using an Epson light projector hooked to a pentium 90 computer, a VCR, and a live feed from a video. I'm always looking for ways to further enhance our worship service. Right now we use PowerPoint for announcements, songs and readings. We use the live feed to display the children's message so the adult may view whats happening and have used the VCR to show movies.
Posted by Paul Williams on Nov 8, 2000.

As an article on this site comments, is our Powerpoint is becoming bla and are taking to the next level. We are doing some in-house video design yet it seem silly to try to convert Quicktime or other video to a codec that allow Power point to playthe video. Also, the resolutions are better when we keep it in their native mode. Is there devices that can receive multiple inputs (ie PC from powerpoint, video, digital cam, DVD) that allow a tech to fade to the correct input without having to change the input source on the projector. IE One constant input to the Projector and multiple devices. Transitions need to be smooth so to keep the distractions minimal if nill. Any THoughts??? Thanks Steve in Anchorage
Posted by Steve Sobetsky on Dec 8, 2000.


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Steve,
We use a Videonics MX-1 video mixer to do what you describe (www.videonics.com). It's entry level ($1000), but very functional. It has 4 inputs and one output. We use 3 inputs: computer, video tape, and camera. The computer first goes through a scan converter (TView Gold) to convert it to a composite (TV) signal and then to the mixer. This is all located in the sound booth and a single coax cable runs to the projector.

We loose a little video quality in converting the computer's SVGA signal to TV, but we get the benefits of fades and great transitions between different sources.

Hope this helps. If you decide to keep using PowerPoint, check us out at www.worshipbuilder.com. We have integrated the Windows Media Player into our product so that PowerPoint presentations play AV files using the Media Player. Trying to get PowerPoint to play media files is problematic at best and Microsoft is clearly investing more technology in the Media Player.

Don Wuebben
DONline Solutions, Inc.
1-877-690-4460
(210)-690-4460
Posted by Don Wuebben on Dec 8, 2000.


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I think that Tim may have answered this question in someone else's previous post in another area of this site, but I couldn't find it, so I'll ask again.

I'm wondering if there is a switcher/fader that will provide smooth transitions between RGB and scaled up composite signals. We have been trying an Extron switcher with 4 inputs (composite, component, s-video, and RGB passthrough). There are no transition effects on this piece. The switching between 1,2, and 3 is seamless with a nice black screen between them. However, switching to OR from input 4 (RGB passthrough) causes a blue screen to appear for about 1.5 seconds. What is happening is the signal is temporarily interupted between the Extron piece and the projector. We have the projector blank feature set to black, but when there's no signal present, it defaults to blue anyway.

Soooo, my delimma is how to switch from our computer signal to anything else (and vice versa) smoothly. From what I can gather, the only way to do this is to down convert the RGB, which is opposite of what we're doing right now with the Extron. The Extron does a great job of scaling the video and once the switch is complete the results are great. We payed almost 2 grand for this piece of gear and I thought it would be seamless between all four inputs, but alas it isn't. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make this work, or should we put this piece up for sale in the classifieds and go for a scan converter video mixer option?

<><,

Warren
Posted by Warren Pattison on Dec 12, 2000.


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Here are a couple of the previous threads on the subject:

http://www.churchmedia.net/cgi-bin/m...+read+tech+139

http://www.churchmedia.net/cgi-bin/m...+read+tech+129

Read this article:
http://churchmedia.net/howto/Mix/mixcomp.htm

Here are some products to check out:
http://www.extron.com/product/product.asp?id=sgs408
http://www.inlineinc.com/products/si...pdf/IN1404.pdf
http://www.rgbspectrum.com/Webpages/...multinput.html
http://www.folsom.com/Product_page/v...screenpro.html
http://www.fsrinc.com/omni.htm

Posted by Tim Eason on Dec 12, 2000.

We currently have one Sony projector hung from the ceiling, with a computer and a VCR feeding it on separate inputs. I'm about to run a wire to connect the remote control to the projector to change inputs (we have no switcher yet).

We are considering adding another projector to project onto a second wall. I'm trying to work out the ebst way to run A/V cables to the two projectors, and how to control the inputs.

Computer control is iffy, since Sony only offers control (other than the remote)via its Projector Sation software which is USB only (bummer- that serial port had great potential) and USB cable costs a fortune and might have distance limits.

I'm wondering how we would wire- perhaps a switcher at the control station, then to cable to the projector, then a DA to split it?

Any suggestions or real-world experience with this kind of set-up?

Thanks much


Posted by Joe Hewes on May 23, 2001.

We are currently using a Videonics MX Pro switcher to send our computer, VCR, DVD, and Cam to a Sony model 30 projector.

I understand that the Videonics can be updated to a MX Pro DV model.

My question is, is anyone useing one that could tell be if I would still have to run a scan converter for the computer signal and what kind of a signal the Videonic would be sending to the projector, would it improve out picture quality?

Thanks for any help I can get.

Don
Posted by Don Loudenbeck on Feb 18, 2002.

We are in the process of collecting bids on a video projection system for our soon-to-be renovated Sanctuary. I would appreciate any guidance you could offer on these issues.

There are a number of issues to overcome. For one, we can't do rear projection because the only place to put the two screens is in front of the cabinets that house 80% of our organ (don't even get me started on that one!) The screens will need to be acoustically transparent to allow the organ sound to come through. The other major issue is that the screens will be adjacent to 2 very large, very beautiful, stained glass windows (not just ambient light, but colored ambient light!). So our projectors will need to be at least 4000 lumens, if not brighter.

We have been doing IMAG using our two Canon GL1 cameras and overlaying song lyrics (lower third) using PowerPoint and our Videonics MX1 mixer. This is less than ideal and the key quality isn't always the best. I have seen other churches using hardware CGs for lyrics (like Willow Creek). I know practically nothing about hardware CG (brands, set up, ease of use, quality, etc.) Are any of you doing hardware CG? If so, do you still use PPT or worship software for your graphics?

Our cameras (2, maybe 3) will need to be remotely mounted and remotely controlled. Because of the changing light issues due to the stained glass, I'd like to have PTZ and iris exposure control. Any ideas on cameras (3 chip) and remote systems for that? I think the GL1's may be too big for where we need to mount them and as far as I know there is no LANC for iris or zoom control on those cameras.

I would like to upgrade our switchers (we're actually going to use the MX1's we own in another worship space.) I've seen other churches using the Panasonic WJ-MX20. We don't need any fancy transitions, but we need to have a smooth fade and clean cut. We also need to down-convert our computer signal for that mixer (thinking Sony DSC 1024 here). [Do we need the computer if we do hardware CG?]

There seem to be many more of the scaler/switchers out there now. I used an Extron scaler at my last church and hated it -- no fades, and the signal would drop for a second when switching to and from computer sources. AAAAGGGHHH! and I really NEED fades. The scaled up video also tended to have a lot of artifacting in it -- pretty ugly.

Is anyone using a scaler/switcher that likes it? Some I've read about include the FSR Compass (7x1), the Extron SGS 408 8x2, the Folsom Research Presentation Master or Screen Pro, and some by EchoLab (Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, KS uses these). Any recommendations? Is scaling the way to go?

Thanks in advance!

Warren Pattison
Hyde Park UMC
Tampa, FL



Posted by Warren Pattison on Jun 11, 2002.


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Warren,

Sounds like you've been doing your homework--always good (handy) when consulting consultants. Do you really need advice, sounds like you know what you're up against and know a lot about what's out there. There's so much isn't there; one is almost afraid to make a decision.

I have no great wisdom to ad. We use a system similar to what you have now and I'd like to be in your position to move ahead. My only piece of advice is that you place one camera for a live operator. Go with remote with the others if you must, but you will find direct human control on your main camera a blessing.

I'm very curious about the other advice you get especially on switchers.
Posted by Gregory E. Zschomler on Jun 11, 2002.


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I too, am curious about current switchers or other technology devices that allow for a seamless / fade / transition between multiple devices (computer ... DVD ... VCR ... Digital Camera etc) to a projector. Steve - Grace Community -Anchorage Thanks
Posted by Steve on Jun 11, 2002.


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I'll be looking forward to Tone's article -- he's the man! You can check out an article that covers the very basics of the topic at http://www.churchmedia.net/CMU/artic...deo/005.shtml. There are links to some of these devices at http://www.churchmedia.net/CMU/artic...eo/005r.shtml. I'm sure there will be some new products introduced at Infocomm, so be on the lookout for Tone's report!
Posted by Tim Eason on Jun 11, 2002.


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OK, I gotta pipe in on this one.

We have just finished getting bids on a similar project, in fact Tone was one of those that we spent some time with and submitted a bid along with Ford Audio Video and Jef Kethley at Pizzas Productionsin. I will note that any one of these three are great resources and you really can not go wrong with any of them as far as quality and know how. In my book Tone leads the list in true knowledge in this field.

Ok now onto the good stuff. I have viewed this with the main basic question what is your intented goal and audience. For us we have two. We have a real need of a control system (switch) that will meet the need of Imag, using a PC running power point and Song Show, a Video Deck and a couple of cameras. This meets the need of the first audience and goal of those that are in the Sanctuary. But for those that will be watching a "Recorded" video, DVD, or online stream you have a different audience and goal. So my solution is to have two switch systems. For the Imag I currently plan on using the Analog Way Smart Fade. For the "Recorded" switch I am planning on using he Panasonic WJMX-50 but I have heard some interesting things about the WJMX-70. Now I know some of you know that those switches start at $3000 and question why not the Videonics switches, its simple I have broken two in two years, next question. For cameras I am planning on getting the JVC DV500U studio configured. That is the minimum I would get and all I can afford at this time. For us size does matter as far as the CCD is concerned and the size of the camera is concerned. We will shoot from 100' to the subject and I have found when you use the GL1 or the XL1 you are really pushing the optical limits of those at that distance, don't get me wrong I love these dudes they are our workhorses of our video ministry. Plus a larger camera on the right sticks just handles better for long shots.

I do have a serious conviction about one part of your plan though, I despise remote cameras, in christian love of course . Why? it is simple, Ephesians 4:11-12 says we are to equip the saints to do the work of the gospel. Paul in Corinthians speaks of the Body of Christ with many parts and gifts. We should in every way possible utilize people in ministry as much as possible. Teach them and train them and you will put your lifes work into the hands of a goofball at times but it will reap so much fruit its a biblical thing so it is a sure thing . OK off this soap box

One big huge problem looms with our system. The future, there is going to be a huge change in five years that will effect all of us in this ministry and that is the switch from 4:3 to 16:9 our system will not be compliant with 16:9. we will be good for 5 years and maybe 6 but in 7 or 8 years we will have to revamp. Now I got some great advice and bids on this issue from Tone but the cost was much steeper and honestly more than we could afford. I made it very clear to my board that our plan was a 5 year plan and if we would be in the same building 5 years from now we will probably have to get all new equip in five years. So as you buy new you have to weigh the 16:9 / 4:3 issue in.

So what are we getting and how much?
Here is a rough overview.
One 7,000 lumen Projector and Screen. Analog Way Smart Fade switch. DSR20 DVCAM Deck. Panasonic MX -50 Switch. Two JVC DV500U Cameras studio Configured and all the cables and parts to make it all run right and we will be around $75,000 to $78,000.

So there is my 2 cents and a few bucks.

In Him
Randy Neary

Posted by Randy Neary on Jun 11, 2002.


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Randy:

Thanks for your post. I agree with your theological position on the work of the body. Just to clarify on the staffed camera issue -- we are renovating an historic building and have to leave 3 walls standing. We're moving one wall back and reversing the direction of the sanctuary (the chancel will be on the north end rather than the south end.) We're also adding a balcony.

The decision was made prior to my arrival a year ago that the priority in the project is the number of seats in the space. That presents some major problems from the tech perspective. For one thing we have no live production space outside of the sanctuary. All of the audio, video, and lighting positions will be crammed into the front edge of the balcony. (And I mean crammed -- we're having to cantilever the front of the balcony to accomodate our equipment racks!) We will have one staffed camera there in the balcony, but there is no other place in the space to set up a tripod and platform for other staffed cameras. However, the remote cameras (1, maybe as many as 3) will be pan, tilt, zoom, and iris controlled and will require at least one operator for them. So in a given service we will have 2 camera operators, maybe as many as 4 depending on the style of camera control we go with.

I really appreciate all of your posts. It looks as though there is a lot of interest in this area. I look forward to Tone's article.

Warren
Posted by Warren on Jun 12, 2002.


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Yikes Warren, now I understand, I don't like it but I understand . What is it with Methodist and buildings in the Asemblies of God we just Build a new one and sell our problemed building to someone else, that works so much easier than moving walls and trying to update century or older building . Life in the ministry is always fun Just a thought

In HIM
Randy Neary
Posted by Randy Neary on Jun 12, 2002.


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Warren,

Sounds like you've got an interesting set of problems to overcome. But that kind of situation is always an opportunity to see God work. Enjoy the ride!

Our solution may not work for you but just to give you a different perspective, here's how we handle it. We have seperated video production from projection. We felt those were two unique sets of tasks with differing goals and objectives. So, we have a small room immediately off the main sanctuary in which our four cameras (human operated, we've got the room) are switched with a broadcast-grade switch from Grass Valley. We call this the Television Suite and it has all the tools necessary to produce our two weekly TV shows. Two people work here during services: the director and the switch operator. One full time employee (TV producer) works there the rest of the time using the non-linear editor (NLE) to produce the shows for export to the TV stations.

Out in the main sanctuary (control booth that everyone STILL calls the "sound booth" even though we take up more room than they do) we have the video projection work station. This is also a two person set-up. The first operates the computer using Powerpoint 2002 a scripture database in the two screen mode. This person is responsible for staying in sync with the worship leaders and the pastor (or guest speaker) so that the correct song lyrics and/or scripture (in the right Bible version) are available for projection. We always have a planned set of songs and we even usually are given a set of scriptures, but when the Spirit moves we frequently take off on a tangent and this operator has to keep up. Quite a challenge and a very fun and fulfilling job directly supporting the worship. Our in-house graphics artist produces attractive song and scripture backgrounds for the Powerpoint slides to keep it attractive and professinal looking.

The other projectionist operates the Videonics MX-Pro switch. This person acts sort of like a producer for the in-house projection and CCTV systems around the building. He accepts the input from the computer as well as the input from the TV suite (their final output from the Grass Valley switch) as well as a VCR and a DVD player. We use this position to blend all four sources as professionally and appealingly as possible using transitions from one media source to another as well as the Videonics Picture-in-Picture capability to insert once source on top of another. This person has to use a lot of judgement to find the right mix of inputs so as to support the service without taking attention away from where it should be.

So, we are doing both IMAG and text presentation and try to do it in an appealing manner. Don't know if any of that helped but hopefully you'll see that there are a lot of different ways of doing this. There are about as many opinions on this list as there are subscribers but I think we all enjoy the same thing and that is serving God and glorifying Him in the use our our technical talents. Good luck!

Malcolm Kyser
Christian Life Church
Montgomery, Alabama
Posted by Malcolm Kyser on Jun 12, 2002.


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Part of it is that we are landlocked and have no place to build a new building. We want to remain a downtown church (we're actually jst outside of downtown)-- we are thriving here and really reaching out. The other thing is that the building is historic and a landmark here. Leveling it would raise lots of issues in the congregation and in the community. Someday we hope to buy some more land adjacent to our property and build a new worship center. We did just purchase a bar adjacent to the property -- hope to renovate it into a coffe shop/commedy club/acoustic music venue as well as a place for community group meetings. You may have seen the ticker on CNN last week that "Tampa church buys bar. Possible future home for Alcoholics Anonymous group." Pretty cool.

WWP
Posted by Warren on Jun 12, 2002.

We are bringing video from two different computers to a single projector. We use a simple manual switch. The switching is not very smooth and the video projector sometimes gets confused on the frequency. Then we have to use the projector remote to reset the frequency on the projector. A menu screen comes up. As you can imagine, the result is very distracting.

Any solution to smoothly switching between two computers? Also, is there anything we can use to send a blank screen to the projector whenever we need to work on the computer.
Posted by Terry Taylor on Sep 26, 2002.


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There are many different switcher out there depending on your budget and need.

Certainly the easiest to use (as well as the cheapest to buy) is the Videonics MXPro (around $1,100). I know that Panasonic makes on that is comperable for in the same price range. These mixers have smooth switching of up to 4 video sources. I would suggest you look at one of these.
Posted by Steve Goad on Sep 27, 2002.


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For many years we used a Videonics MX-1 switcher but we have now upgraded to the MX-Pro. It gives you four channels you can mix (we also use a DVD player, a VCR and live feed from the cameras on a seperate switcher) and hundreds of transitions if you want to be creative. In an average service we use maybe only three or four but they are very smooth and professional looking.
Posted by Malcolm Kyser on Sep 27, 2002.


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I think you are wanting the same box I am trying to get our church to purchase. The Videonics systems only take composite video and will not take the VGA signals from your 2 PC's. Analog Way makes a wonderful box that will do just this:
http://www.analogway.com/produits/seam6/somseam6.htm
It is rather expensive, but a wonderful piece of hardware.

Sheldon

Posted by Sheldon Koehler on Sep 27, 2002.


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Melissa,

I'm interrested in your trouble with the Analog Way Smart Fade. I am considering a similar product from Extron (SGS40. Anyone have any experience with that piece of gear? Do you have the same limitations Melissa described (only cuts between like sources?) I could see that being a problem as our style is to use smooth cross fades between camera sources and video deck sources, especially in more meditative or worshipful songs.

Thanks for your input...

Warren Pattison
Hyde Park UMC
Tampa FL
Posted by Warren on Sep 27, 2002.


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I would suggest using the Smart Fade as a mixer between your computer source and a seperate mixer like the Videonics pieces. The smart fade will allow you to fade to black between 2 like sources. It also is a scaller/scan converter for sending a VGA signal to your projector. I have the unit and really love it.
Posted by Drew Ryan on Sep 29, 2002.


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There are a couple of articles on the site about this and explains some options along with pretty pictures:
http://www.churchmedia.net/CMU/articles/video/005.shtml
http://www.churchmedia.net/CMU/howto/Mix/mixcomp.shtml

Warren had mentioned that the FSR Compass freezes when going from one source to another. I thought he was talking about a defect, but it actually does it on purpose (I reviewed it last weekend). It takes the last frame of a video signal and freezes it while it fades into the computer source. The reason is that it is easier and cheaper to cross-mix a single, digital image rather than moving video. In other words, they do it this way to save money. That's one reason the Compass costs about 1/3 the price of the Extron unit. It makes the Compass useless for IMAG, but I don't think that's what they designed it for. Also, most churches are not doing live video (and many who are probably shouldn't), so if you just want to fade between video and computer and can live with the freeze "effect", the Compass is a good unit.

My opinion has always been that you should not scan convert (down-scale) your computer signal unless you absolutely have to. The reason is that projectors are more like computer monitors than televisions. Unless you spend a lot of money on a broadcast-quality scan converter, you WILL loose a ton of resolution. Media people that have worked in large churches with IMAG and big budgets have been scan converting for years because there was no other way to get the job done. Like I said, most of you are not using live video and most of you don't spend enough on media equipment -- so don't scan convert. It's just plain yucky. You have to decide if you are doing in-house TV or you just need an easy way to switch between computer and video. The majority of you need the latter.

I'll be writing the Compass review for Church Production mag today, so look for that in the next newsletter.

-Tim
Posted by Tim Eason on Sep 29, 2002.


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"My recommendation is that for the money (SGS408 has a street price of about $14,000), I’d invest in a Sony DFS-700 (http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professiona...es/dfs-700.pdf) - street price of $17,000 - and a couple of high-quality scan converters ($1,500 - $2,200 street price) to mimic the look and feel of broadcast TV.

I’ve specified several DFS-700’s and they represent some of the most powerful and intuitive video switchers on the market. Yet another option would be the Ross Video’s Synergy 100 (http://www.rossvideo.com/syn100.html), which is upgradeable."

Can you elaborate as to why it is beneficial to spend more $$$ (ca. $21,000 for the Sony and scan converters vs $14,000 for the SGS40? It seems that the basic message I'm hearing from everyone is that it's better if you don't convert. From personal experience, scan converting is disappointing at best. I hate to spend hours on a graphic to have it look like junk when it's converted and run through our MX-1.

What additional functionality and features do you gain by going with the Sony and scan converting as opposed to the SGS408?

Thanks in advance for your clarification.

Grace and Peace <><,

Warren Pattison
Hyde Park UMC
Tampa, FL

Posted by Warren on Sep 29, 2002.


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If you're interested, my review on The Compass is at:
http://www.churchmedia.net/CMU/articles/video/010.shtml

Even if you aren't interested in this particular product, the article has some good info on computer/video switching and mixing.

-Tim
Posted by Tim Eason on Sep 30, 2002.


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Wow! Now we're talking. A lot of good information from both you gentlemen. But, like several on the list, you've now got me thinking about upgrading. We've been told to prepare for a new building starting in the next two years and to think ahead about how we want to upgrade our areas. So perhaps this is the time for me to ask a couple of questions of you guys.

I'm one of the ones downconverting the computer slides to video and mixing everything at NTSC composite video resolution. Frankly, we're thrilled with that but maybe that's because we've never seen our projectors pump out anything better. I've been told by those who were around when this stuff was installed that we can't run VGA cable to our four projectors because VGA signal won't travel that far. And for that reason we are limited to composite video. Is that true?

Our longest cable run to the furthest projector is about 120 feet. Our sanctuary is arena style so we have to provide IMAG, songs and announcements in both video and computer slides to all 360 degrees around the center stage. To do that we use four ceiling mounted projectors (Sharp 600 lums) and four large screen TV's mounted at floor level in the stage. The sanctuary has no windows and while ambient light is very high on the stage for the TV cameras (4), it is fairly dark in the seating area. So there's very little ambient light on the screens making the images seem pretty bright.

We use the MX-Pro to mix the downconverted computer graphics, the DVD player, the VCR and live video from the TV room (high dollar stuff in there to produce the TV shows). During a typical service we are constantly fading from slides to video and back with overlaying, mixing and Picture in Picture. We have a wide variety of song backgrounds in PowerPoint that let us either mix our songs with full screen video behind (titling on a budget, I guess), partial screen mixing of the graphic and the live image (very pretty), or with some of them we can insert the image into a reserved section of the graphic PIP). Then, between songs or when words are not needed, we can pan smoothly to full IMAG or an image (moving or still) from either the VCR or DVD.

So, this method has provided us a huge amount of flexibility and what we think is a very professional (broadcast TV style) presentation that is interesting to see, nice looking and provides a service to the congration without becoming a distraction. During a service, we have one person dedicated just to mixing; acting as a director and determining what is needed to benefit the service. Meanwhile, the second person (on the computer) is concentrating on the P&W leaders to stay in sync with them and trying to guess where they're going next.

Sorry for the long post but I wanted to give you our current situation so you can tell me if there is a way to improve our resolution while keeping the flexibility and capabilities we've come to expect. And I thought I'd ask in this open forum because it sounds like there may be others in similar situations and your answers could help them as well.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Malcolm Kyser
Christian Life Church
Montgomery, Alabama
Posted by Malcolm Kyser on Sep 30, 2002.


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We don't sell much hardware. A fellow forumite offered a special price of $4695 for The Compass. It lists for $5995 and he usually sells it for $5195. Since CMN tries to be nutral when it comes to promoting companies (unless they are a sponsor), email me directly and then I'll hook you up with each other. Otherwise, all of the dealers on the forum will scream "hypocracy!". If there are any other dealers that would like to offer a special price on hi-rez switchers/mixers, let me know. I might set up a special page just for that...

-Tim
Posted by Tim Eason on Sep 30, 2002.


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Thanks Tim. I am not able to purchase at this time, but knowing the list and average street price just made me decide it replaced the Smart Fade on my wish list! I still may end up buying a TVOne CSC-1100 for now... anyone have a great deal on a used one?

Sheldon

Posted by Sheldon Koehler on Sep 30, 2002.


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Rich,

I haven't seen a reply from Tone so I thought I'd help you a little until he has time to reply.

1. The Videonics MX-1 and MX-Pro are video mixers that accept composite and s-video signals. They are not for use with a computer. To put a computer signal into a Videonics (or other video mixer), you would scan convert the computer signal DOWN to a video signal level. This would create a loss in brightness, resolution and clarity.

2. Yes! Extron makes a DVS204 that scales up the video sources and switches between three video sources and one computer source. Street price is around $1675. Keep in mind that (unlike the Smart Fade or
Compass) it is NOT seamless, makes cuts between sources, does not have a title effect of logo storage, only handles four inputs and does not have a remote control (yet).

<")))))><
Chris O'Neal
Paragon Multimedia Imaging
http://www.projectionsolutions.com
877-321-5106 Ext. 22

->Question:
->OK, I think I get the idea that it is important to keep the
->quality of the PC signal and even better to improve (scan
->up?) the signal of the other media. And the idea that
->churches are 'cheap' :~)
->
->I have couple of questions I think you can help me with if
->you would be so kind.
->
->1. Does the Videonics MX-1 keep the the PC signal output the
->same or does it scale it down to that of Video?
->
->2. For one who can't afford the 5K of something like Smart
->Fade, what if any are the possible alternatives in the 2-3K range?

Posted by Chris O'Neal on Oct 2, 2002.


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This message is from "Terry Taylor"
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And now a word from us folks on a very limited budget. . . .

Our church has about 100 members. As I understand the statistics, over 80%
of churches in America are 100 members or less. The prices you guys are
talking about are unreal to me. Our whole video system cost less than
$5,000. . . . and virtually everything was installed by volunteer workers.

Any suggestions on handy equipment for us "poor folks" . . . . .

What I would really like is a box to put between the VGA output of the
computer and the projector such that I could hit a "panic button" and send a
black image to the projector while I work on the system. Somebody told me
that there was such a thing as a "blanker box" that would allow me to do
this and that it only cost about $150. Anybody know anything about this?


TERRY TAYLOR
Visit www.eBibleTeacher.com - resources for Sunday School teachers &
Preachers


Posted by Terry Taylor on Oct 5, 2002.


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Just to beat this horse to death, I thought I would let you know about an off-line discussion I had with someone who deals with the church market. He said:

“I read your review of the Compass seemless switcher, and after 2 days of searching found out the price is $5,999. There are less expensive solutions. For $6000 I can build an entire video production center. I think the review is great, and the product is nice, but at that price it is out of the range of most churches and ministries I work with. I use the Viewsonic VB50HRTV ($100) for switching, or buy an actual video switcher if the buget is a little larger.”

I replied:

“Thanks for the note. The reason this switcher costs so much is because it switches at the high resolution level. Using video equipment involves scaling down your computer signal to the video level, which degrades the signal tremendously. I never recommend scan converting as it defies the purpose of using a computer and projector.”

He replied:

“I work with video production and churches all the time, and understand the reasons why switchers are preferred over scan converters. I have footage on national television, and understand all the technology and the proper uses of it.

When a church can afford it, we use DVD players or digital tape to feed the projectors through the devices such as the Viewsonic I mentioned. By using lower priced but quality devices like the Viesonic allows us to spend money on better projectors and better cameras and better editing equipment. My primary concern is always that the message is proclaimed in a clear precise way with the highest quality possible.

Speaking of editing equipment, I use nothing but the Canopus series of capture/edit cards. They are extremely reliable (affordable) and provide scalability all the way up to TV broadcast. I've got systems in several states, and rarely get any calls for support, all of which have been able to be resolved via the phone. I've worked with several ministries that have weekly television broadcast, one of them won 3 awards for their show last year. They won the awards, even though they had only been broadcasting for about 32 weeks.”

I replied:

“Sounds like you have a great ministry for churches and care for their financial wellbeing. We sell a product that is almost identical to the Viewsonic unit (the XGA Theater by TV ONE). We've had about 1/3 of them returned. I asked TV ONE about it and they said it wasn't meant for video projectors, just computer monitors. Units like these are not video scalers, just converters. They only convert the s-video or composite input into a signal that can run through a VGA cable. In a lot of cases the video signal will break up, especially with fast pans/zooms. A scaler will scale up the video signal to the computer level. Obviously, scalers cost more -- and switcher/scalers cost even more -- and mixer/scalers cost the most. As a church media consultant, I try to suggest a wide variety of options (like the article on distraction eliminators). Sometimes I focus on one particular area. I make it a point not to review or suggest anything that I feel is outrageous. The review on the FSR unit was actually assigned to me by Church Production Magazine, and I felt that it was an obtainable unit for many churches. I work primarily with the small-church market and it's my specialty. When a church understands why a product costs so much and how it can enhance the quality of their system, you would be surprised that the money can be found in almost any sized church. I think I would be short-changing churches if I didn't at least educate them as to the options available. The whole video market is moving towards high-definition. The prices on these types of units will continue to drop. Video-level devices and VHS will eventually become like black and white TVs and audio cassettes. It's my job to lead churches down the road to hi-rez.

I'm a big Canopus fan also. We almost used them for our seminars, but then Matrox came out with the RT.X100. It does everything (plus a little more) than the Storm does for about $1000. Matrox and Adobe are 2 of our biggest sponsors now. Canopus is a very good company, though.

Since we both serve the same market, I felt it would be a good idea to give you the reasoning behind my article. I used to shoot for the lowest common denominator when working with churches. I know they are on tight budgets. Since I started doing this in 1995, I've come up a couple of notches and feel strongly about the need for quality from the beginning of a signal until it reaches the screen. A system is only as good as its weakest link. It's a waste of God's money to skimp on crucial components in the signal path.

I hope I don't sound pompous or preachy, I just want you to know where I'm coming from (since you asked ). I have a very good friend in the business who challenged me when I was suggesting inadequate components to churches. I didn't like to hear it, but it turns out he was right. I'm just trying to pass on that challenge to you. Give churches options that may even seem outrageous to you. I think you will be surprised at what a church can accomplish when they really want top-notch quality.

I'll have to end our discussion here as I have a ton of work piled up. Please know that I appreciate what you are doing. We all need to work together to get the job done.”

-Tim
Posted by Tim Eason on Oct 5, 2002.


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Thanks Tim! Although I would love the features of the Compass, the TVOne CSC-1100 is in our price range at this time.

But I wanted to ask, since you brought up the Matrox X100, have you played with the new Matrox X10? It is half the price and it is still Real Time.

I would like to see something like the TVOne box combined with an X10 like card that can be an all in one (no pun intended on ATI...) card for doing this inside the PC.

Sheldon

Posted by Sheldon Koehler on Oct 5, 2002.


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The CSC-1100 is a scaler, so you're doing okay with that unit. It will act as a pseudo-switcher at the same time. The X10 looks pretty cool. The main difference seems to be the amount of things it will do in real-time. Also, it doesn't seem to be "real" real-time. Like the RT-2500, the real time effects only apply to the s-video out, not through FireWire. Whereas the X100 does real-time through the FireWire port and also does real-time transcoding to MPEG 2 for DVD authoring. The X100 does real-time keying (bluescreen) also. I think either card would be a good choice depending on your application.

Video editing combined with switching? Toaster 2. I doubt we'll see anything else in a less expensive category.

Even though this has been a hot thread, it may be surprising to know that the argument may be moot. I’m taking a poll on the site asking how often video is shown in church services. “Once a month” is in the lead with 35%, “Several times a year” is in second with 27%, and “Almost every week” in 3rd with 24%. So, with the bulk of churches hardly ever showing video in a church service, what’s the point in arguing about seamless switchers ? Life is fun.
Posted by Tim Eason on Oct 5, 2002.


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Hello all,

I couldn't resist anymore. Here is my two cents worth, though it may not be worth that much.

I work almost exclusively with churches and find that budget drives ALL decisions. However, I counsel them all the time to put off buying something rather than compromising. The compass is one of the best hi-res switchers on the market, but hi-res switching IS pricey.

However, Tim brings up a great point: If churches are only using video about once a month, I would continue using the projector's biult in capabilities and wait until the demand grows.

At my home church, we use video every week, sometimes as many as three or four times in a service. No, we don't have a compass switcher. We use a video switcher to key lower third graphics and live video. We use a separate laptop (donated) for the lower third graphics and keep them simple so that the down-scaling isn't that noticeable. We then place the video in the service so that we are switching within the mixer and the transitions are smooth.

Any time we go to hi-res computer, we use the projector switching capabilities and, typically this is done during a prayer, so distractions are minimal.

I know this is a long post, but I hope it helped someone.

Blessings,
Kevin Willis
Cornerstone Media Services
Posted by Kevin Willis on Oct 5, 2002.

Our video ministry started about 3 years ago with one VHS-C palm-corder on a tripod in the back of the worship center. A month or so later, a second camera - SVHS - was added along with a cheap switcher (Videonics MX1).. the two cameras were mixed, along with a feed from the PowerPoint computer that was displaying lyrics, sermon notes, and scripture into a big screen in the worship center.. then then recorded on a VCR.

A year ago this past Easter, Crossroads Fellowship opened its first "Video Cafe", which consisted of a live feed of the service into another room with a more casual coffee-house atmosphere. By that time we were using the following configuration:
2 Canon XL1s Mini DV Cameras
1 Videonics MXPro-DV Digital Video Mixer
1 Go-Video Dual Deck VCR
.. not a lot of money was put into the system, but the results were suprisingly good... we mixed 2 live cameras with the PowerPoint/EasyWorship output and sent it to the Video Cafe (and hallway TVs) via RF Modulator. We also record the service, but just for staff use and future projects.
Since then, we have added a TVOne Overlay device that allows us to overlay words from EasyWorship onto whatever live video we are mixing at the time. We chose this method because it doesn't send the video through a computer between the mixer and the RF Modulator. We will soon be sending the video signal over CAT5 instead of RF.
Future upgrades will include obtaining a "better" video mixer. The Videonics has been OK but we have had a few incidents with it and don't trust it to be our weak link between the worship center and the Video Cafe... which has served as many as 450 attendees in a service.... looking at the Panasonic MX 70 as a possible upgrade.
Also looking at a third camera for more flexibility in shot selection...
The Video Team works separately from other tech teams.. there is also an Audio team and a PowerPoint/Easyworship team... our video team is strictly involved with video. We use a team of 3 each Sunday... 2 camera operators and a Video Director on the switcher.. since we have 2 services, team arrives at 8:00 AM and usually finishes by 1:00 PM.... long day...