Scaler/Switcher

[jameyp]

I currently have a scaler/switcher and am disappointed in it. I will not mention it in this thread until I have a bit more info. Anyway it can do composite, component, s-video, VGA, and DVI. It also switches the audio as well.

Anyway I am curious what products, that are similar, that you guys/gals may be using out there and whether or not you are happy with it.

My source is a custom built PC and the FOH projector is an NEC NP4100W with a resolution of 1280x800. I will probably be looking for a replacement switcher soon so I would love your feedback.

[waynehoskins]

What I've been thinking of for my church is an Extron IN1508. Two composite inputs, two Y/C inputs, one YPbPr input, two VGA inputs, one DVI input, all with audio as well. Output is VGA, with balanced audio on a Phoenix.

[six5tring]

I'm guessing that you have a Kramer 720.. I my experience switches are built to cost.

Of the switches I use on a daily basis I would go the following in order of preference (low to high)

Kramer 724 --> Basic switch, hard to use menu, little control, single scaler, fades through black.
Kramer 727 --> Dual scaler, fairly slow processor, hard to use menus. Preview bus.
FSR Compass S1 --> Very easy to use, single scaler freezes last frame for smoothish transition.
Barco DCS200 --> Dual scaler, easy menus, preview bus
Barco Screen Pro II --> Dual scaler, fairly easy menus, background and 2 layers... very fast processing, hardly any noticable video lag.

This however goes between a range of £700-7000 switchers! The difference is noticable however for many applications a £1500 switch is more than adequate.

I'm hoping to use a Kramer 747 on a build soon which apparently has better processing etc in it.

What are you wanting your switch to do and what requirements is it failing on currently?

[Borggren]

At our church we are using Extron ISS506 switcher/scaler. It is very flexible with inputs on RGBHV, so all inputs can handle all analog signals from composite and up. It has digital in/output options. Very easy to use.

[jameyp]

Ok here is the situation.
I am not looking for troubleshooting advice I think I have exhausted this avenue.

I have a Kramer VP-724XL. The unit, if it worked properly, would be exactly what I want and need. The problem is the image quality. I have worked with tech support at Kramer and they have done a good job as far as trying to help me but I believe the product falls short of living up to its specifications.

To sum it up I have tried several video sources, screen combinations, environments, locales, and cable setups and still see distortion in the image. The distortion at one point was bad enough for the Pastor to ask if everyone else was seeing it as well. We have a big projection that is nice and bright for our situation so it is very easy to see this distortion.

1024x768 with a dim projector we never noticed but with a higher resolution display and bright projection it is quite apparent. This is not due to the new projector as I have eliminated that as a possibility, for one simply hitting freeze on the Kramer. Once freeze is hit the distortion is frozen and perfectly stable on the projector, not to mention the various other lcd screens I tested it with.

This distortion is still there after buying an EDID emulator, also Kramer, and setting the unit to the exact timing, in and out, to the computer through to the projector. Kramer was nice enough to send me another unit and that unit preforms equally bad if not worse. They keep telling me it is my settings but I have done everything they have asked. I also have sources where it is impossible to see or change the timing of. Lower resolution sources do not appear to have the distortion.

The purpose in this scaler/switch is for me to plug a variety of sources to it and have it manage them so that I do not have to resync the projector each time i change sources. This unit does such a poor job at this that I am now stuck with a $1000 paperweight. We had the unit a year and the bulk of that time was on an under powered lower resolution display which did not reveal the distortion.

Both Kramer units I have distort the input signal by simply tapping on the scaler with my knuckles. I believe it to be a poor design that is also sensitive to heat. The warmer the unit gets the worse the distortion. I am not talking extreme heat either I am talking ambient temperture of 85F.

Kramer says they have sold thousands of units with no complaints of my type so they are unwilling to give me a different model. They want me to purchase a VP-728. They are sending me a demo unit to see if it helps but are unwilling to give it to me because they say that the unit I have works. I say that my cheap lcd tv does a better job scaling than this dedicated scaler that costs twice as much.

Because of the above scenario I am unwilling to purchase another Kramer, well that and the fact that even the EDID emulator softens the image. If they gave me another model on trade, I would be willing to pay the difference in price and I would be satisfied, even though I think they should give me, free of charge, a unit that meets its specs.

Anyway I am looking for other units in the same area of cost and specifications as the Kramer VP-724XL. Willing to spend more for stability but not too much more.

I will report back if they end up giving me a working unit of sometype. I do believe the support I have been given is good, but they are unwilling to budge that the unit is not performing as the manual indicates.

I troubleshoot electronics for a living and have a good working understanding of the variables at play here. I also troubleshoot environments for a living and would be willing to say that if I can not get this product to work properly then I have been given two defective units or it is poorly designed, this unit was not made for broadcast engineers only. I believe that I have put in more than a fair amount of time and effort to get this unit to perform and have done more to troubleshoot this than most would be willing or capable of.

Any suggestions as to unit that you believe perform well in this area would be much appreciated.

Thanks and God bless,
Jamey

[waynehoskins]

There's a reason that Kramer is known in the broadcast world as Krapper and are the video equivalent to Behringer. I believe you've found that reason.

Look at Extron, FSR, Barco, etc. I'd start with Extron; they're inexpensive but quality. Of course, above that you have all the other BC names: Gefen, Aja, Sony, Harris, etc.

[jameyp]

Well not being a in the broadcast world I didn't know that.

Anyone know anything about the Extron IN1508?

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by jameyp

This is not due to the new projector as I have eliminated that as a possibility, for one simply hitting freeze on the Kramer. Once freeze is hit the distortion is frozen and perfectly stable on the projector, not to mention the various other lcd screens I tested it with.

That is not eliminating the projector as a potential element, you really need to eliminate either the projector or scaler from the signal path to isolate one or the other. And even that may not show an issue that is a result of the combination.

If you are scaling to the native resolution of the projector then you may also want to verify if the projector has a way of bypassing or defeating any internal scaling. However, a quick look at the Kramer VP-724XL manual seems to indicate that it does not support the 1280x800 native resolution your projector, meaning that both the switcher/scaler and projector are probably scaling. That may also be why Kramer is suggesting the VP-729XL as it does apparently support a 1280x800 output resolution. Whenever possible, I try to select switcher/scaler or seamless switcher devices that directly support the native resolution of the display devices and then defeat or bypass any scaling in the display device.

To me your 'tapping' on the scaler causing changes in the image seems possibly more telling as unless you have some questionable physical connections at the scaler that should not affect the output. But you may want to look at the cabling and connections just to make sure that is not a possibility.

The Extron IN1508 is a good, cost effective option and supports a 1280x800 resolution output although that resolution selection is not directly accessible by the front panel 'Output Rate' button and must instead be accessed via the menu.

[Nick Mawer KUK]

I hope that in the future I will be able to add some value to the discussions on this Forum. I make no secret that I work for Kramer, and my experience with other forums tells me that that should not be a problem.
Whilst I am here however, I can't help but comment on the unhelpful posting by waynehoskins. We at Kramer are very proud of the products that we make, the build quality, and the functions. We would not, could not, offer a seven year warranty if our products were unreliable. We are also proud to supply the BBC, and the UK operations of several US networks. I am sure if the view that waynehoskins holds was widespread, this would not be the case.

[tpichler]

Welcome to CMN Nick. I'm sorry the circumstances are not more pleasant. We only use a Kramer matrix switch but it has performed well for over 8 years.

Do you have any information on the original problem? Is this resolution supported by this device or not.

If the resolution is supported then surely the reported performance is not acceptable. What test can you recommend that will reveal the source of the distortion.

If the resolution is not supported then please point jameyp (and the rest of us) at the documentation that indicates this.

[Nick Mawer KUK]

I will have to give a quick and brief "holding" response here as I am based in the UK, and my guess is that jameyp has been in contact with our New Jersey office. I have alerted our US office to this post, and I am sure that a full response will be posted shortly. The output resolutions that unit supports are found on page 3 of the user manual. The output resolutions of the VP-728 can be found here on a separate sheet downloadable from the VP-728 page on our website.
Sorry - as new member can't post URLs
Please be patient till a full response can be posted.

[jameyp]

Just for reference the unit comes with a setup for 1280x768. This setup is the worst of all tried resolutions. If I change to other "supported" resolutions the distortion is still there. Basically I don't even feel like this unit is acceptable for much.

I just got an email from the salesman at Kramer saying that he was glad that my problem was fixed. My response was "what was fixed?"

I feel like either I have two defective units or there is a design flaw and Kramer is not stepping up. I feel like I have proven it many times over and I have no proof that the unit can work other than "we have sold thousands with no complaints like yours".

We will see though. They are shipping me a 728 but they said if it works I can buy one. I will not buy another Kramer product if this issue is not resolved.