Find or Train

[jared campion]

I would only ever train keen people, if they have a passion for it they will pick it up quick

[WORDpictures]

Originally Posted by bggowing

In the secular world you'd go for those who already know the stuff. But in the church world if you have people with servant's hearts . . . then you should invest the time, effort, and funds to train them. Chances are they will be doing it for the right reasons and will be there longer than the "experts".

CAUTION: I continue to see the above stated philosophy assumed and erroneously applied in the church. Somehow there is often a belief that those with expertise are "worldly" because of secular success in a field - that they are less worthy for Kingdom service. I had fewer challenges to serving through media ministry when I first got my media start through church than I have now that I've been blessed for those talents to have flourished to become my secular profession. "We welcome anyone to participate - but at expense of refusing a place for those who have "perhaps" been most prepared by God to serve and guide that ministry to its greatest potential." Yet God continues to bless in less expected ways. . . through His higher ways.

Expertise. . . servant's heart. . . these are not mutually exclusive.

[tedanderson]

Somehow there is often a belief that those with expertise are "worldly" because of secular success in a field - that they are less worthy for Kingdom service.

I think that the point that Bggowing wanted to make was that people with an extensive secular background typically don't last long in church media.. which I would have to agree with.

This does not apply in EVERY situation (obviously you are an exception to this idea and so am I) but this has been my experience as well as the experience of my collegues. When it comes to media, there is the "right" way to run it, the "wrong" way to run it, and then there is the way that your church runs it. and most times when I have come across people who are pros in the industry, they have a very hard time checking their ego at the door.

We have people in our congregation who videotape the president at the White House press room, we have people who work for the local news stations as technical directors and camera operators, and we even have someone who is a satellite truck technician. Not a single one of them are interested in working with our church media.

These guys take their craft very seriously (not to say that the rest of us don't) and they get easily frustrated when it comes to dealing with the "church folks" because we have bad habits when it comes to being on time and being committed.

So I am not suggesting that someone with a great deal of worldly secular experience are less worthy.. they are just less patient with people who are simply space bar pushers.

[kbob]

sometimes I think it all has to do with the thankfulness and submission of the people involved. I've had horrible experiences with ministry media people, and great experiences with pros-it's all in the ego and willingness to teach of the individuals involved.

Please understand-these are simply examples, and not my general experience.

[WORDpictures]

No offense intended to anyone here - I just wanted to present a legitimate, heartfelt (and I-don't-believe-so-unusual) perspective.

My personal belief is that an individual is ultimately accountable to God for how productively they apply the giftings which God has entrusted to them. Some man-made obstacles create tremendous spiritual dilemmas.

My point is there should truly be room for believers to serve productively through a role in the church - "EVEN" if they have prerequisite qualifications to serve in that role fairly well.

[Pastor Ryan]

I am all for getting anyone in the body involved in our ministry, I feel if they are interested I want to help them be a blessing and recieve the blessing of serving in ministry.

Here is what I advertise for Volunteers on our website....

http://butterfieldag.com/content.cfm?id=2061


We do in ministry training.

[bggowing]

I don't believe that I ever said that expertise and servant's hearts were mutually exclusive, either implicitly or explicitly. My statement was referring to the difference in handling church volunteers versus secular word paid professionals. In the secular world if someone couldn't do the job chances are they wouldn't get a lot of second chances. In the church environment I feel that there should be more grace given to helping volunteers grow and be nourished in that growth.

Egos get in the way of serving God properly. There's no room for egos when you serve the Lord. And egos get you by in the secular world especially in the entertainment field. And from my personal experience it seems that a goodly number of people who have cut their chops in the secular fields of sound engineering/lighting/video feel that they shouldn't have to start at the bottom just because they've got the experience.

That's not the right attitude of humbleness to take before God. I am thankful that I have 2 team members who have a lot of experience from the secular world that they brought over to my technical team. But their first response when I asked if they would be willing to start out at the bottom of the cycle was "Sure. We're not doing this for us but for God". They've worked out great. They willingly did all the same grunt work that everyone started out doing and then once we knew that their hearts where in the right place, I placed them in a position to mentor those in the team that needed help.

[tedanderson]

And from my personal experience it seems that a goodly number of people who have cut their chops in the secular fields of sound engineering/lighting/video feel that they shouldn't have to start at the bottom just because they've got the experience.

And the funny thing about it is that if they switched employers in the secular world, (say they went from their local TV station to a higher paying job at CBS or CNN) they would have no problem with starting at the bottom again.

[jlhyde]

Let's remember there are two sides to every coin. Some "pros" from the secular world don't last because their heart or attitude is not right. I find that most of them don't last because of the ego's, attitudes and arrogance of those in ministry. I get paid to consult with churches on ways to improve their broadcast. Well over 50% of them close the book after the initial consultation because they don't want to hear the truth. The truth is that 99.9% of the time, if they want to improve what they are doing it involves change and means that (here's the big one!) certain people are going to have to give up some power and authority. This is where the breakdown occurs. Epically if it means a volunteer is going to tell a worship pastor what to do. There are many worship pastors (who typically plan the service) that do a fantastic job with a live environment but don't have a clue how to transition that to a television audience. When I take their script and start tweaking it for a viewing audience they get very offended. The same is true with audio. You bring in a guy who knows how to run live sound and he makes changes then everyone gets upset. Even though it sounds better, they don't like it because it's not what "they" want. I work in ministry 40 hours a week and I broadcast (secularly) about 40 hours a month. I see both sides of this coin on a regular basis and typically when I see finger pointing I have to remind whoever is pointing the finger that there are three fingers pointing back at them.

[tedanderson]

I have to remind whoever is pointing the finger that there are three fingers pointing back at them.

I guess that leaves me out being that I point with my entire hand.. all fingers going outward!

But in all seriousness, I think you hit the nail on the head when you raised the issue of CHANGE. And fortunately I have not had 50% ratio of people who "close the book" on me but often enough I get requests from clients who want me to help them get different results from doing the same things. Usually the best thing to do is to scrap the whole program and do it differently but most times they want a "better" way of doing it the wrong way.

[WORDpictures]

Originally Posted by jlhyde

. . . if they want to improve what they are doing it involves change and means that (here's the big one!) certain people are going to have to give up some power and authority. This is where the breakdown occurs.

seen it more than once. . . but, joyfully, I've seen and am seeing another side of that coin. The most beautifully productive spirit is "we" are walking this walk "together."

[bggowing]

The most beautifully productive spirit is "we" are walking this walk "together."

EXACTLY! Now that's the best way I've seen to wrap this whole topic together!