Tight budget for installation, Advice Please!

[blbernheimer]

Hello everyone,

I have been looking at posts for a few weeks now gathering very helpful information for the task I have been appointed. With a budget of $2,000 I have been asked to determine if it is possible to go from Powerpoint hymn, praise song, and scripture projection from a tabletop stand to a floor standing tripod screen, to a dual screen approach (front and rear) moving the projection from the front pew to the back where the audio booth is located.

I have two major problems. First is I am pretty computer capable (which is how I got nominated for the job) but have no video/audio system experience or knowledge except what I have learned in recent research and from this valuable website. Second is the limitations imposed by the budget of $2,000.

I am trying to remove the clutter caused by the screen on the “preaching stage” almost in front of the choir and the projector and laptop operator in the first pew. We use an Optoma EP/TX 780 projector.

So within that budget I need to be able to purchase one or two 60-70” wide wall screens, one additional projector, ceiling mounts, cables and video extender system. All installation will be done in house.

My longest vga cable run to the front is actually about 125 feet but I expect I will need to get standard lengths of 150 feet. The rear projector run should only be about 50 feet.

I think I can get it accomplished if I can avoid the more expensive vga over cat solutions and use a vga extender like the Aten VS134a or the Cables to Go 29551 unit. The reason for the 4 port choice is for future expansion to a second front screen and lcd outside the worship chapel.

Will the Aten or Cables to Go units push a clean signal 150 feet?

Insight and advice is greatly appreciated.

Bruce

[bcastle]

a couple of questions:
what kinda laptop do you have? will the dual screens show the exact same image or is the rear screen more of a confidence monitor?
what is there a ton of light your projector has to go through?
(i would buy spandex and make a frame for your projector screens.
finally, is it absolutely necessary to have dual projectors?

[blbernheimer]

Thanks for your questions.
We are currently running off a Toshiba laptop 1.5 ghz with 1 gig shared memory. It has an ATI Radeon video card capable of dual display. We ran OpenLP today for the first time instead of Powerpoint and it worked great! I have been expermenting with presentation software during my research process.

I expect the rear sceen can show the same display as the front serving as a confidence screen. I didn't anticipate the ability or need to show something different on the confidence screen than what was on the front screen to the congregation.

The worship area is pretty well lit but the Optoma handles the ambient light well from our current projection distance of about 11 feet from the screen.

It a second projector absolutely necessary as a confidence monitor? I think it is fom the perspective of the choir director although I would rather go with dual front projectors instead for the congregation.

Regarding screens, we have a manual pull wall mount screen that was purchased along with the projection table. I am toying with a couple installation setups to utilize it and the Optoma projector.

Plan A - There is a deep walkway/storage area behind the front stage leading to the baptistry which would be ideal to open a 48x60 hole in the wall and mount a homemade rear projection screen. The Optoma in rear projection mode would serve there as the projector. I would then mount the manual pull front projection screen on the back wall of the church and ceiling mount a new short throw projector to serve as the confidence monitor.

Plan B If the Deacons and building committee object to the permanent rear projection screen in the fron of the church in Plan A, then I mount the manual pull screen up front with a short throw projector ceiling mounted and the Optoma goes to the back wall ceiling mounted as the confidence monitor.

Either way I connect them with cat5e into a hub at the back sound booth and can have power on/off and other functions available. Likewise the vga signal is split from the back to the confidence monitor (about 50ft) and to the front congregation projector (actually about 125 ft but would purchase a quality 150 ft vga cable).

So this is what leads to my question about the reliabiliy of the Aten or Cables to Go Unit as an effective way to push split but boosted signal to the front. I've come to learn to never to believe the company literature regarding performance in their lab as opposed to real user experience in the field.

Bruce

[waynehoskins]

I don't know either manufacturer, so I can't comment on them directly, but I know that for me, the cheapest name I trust is Extron. Above that, it's the broadcast people: Aja, Gefen, etc.

If I were doing it, I'd run two outputs from your computer: one for program and one for prompt. The program feed would run through an XGA DA (such as an Extron P2-DA4) for future expansion, perhaps with some kind of multi-format presentation switcher on the front end of the DA to allow you to take in more than one source. The prompt feed would come from a third video output on the computer, which would require either another card or a USB adapter.

I'd really look at ProPresenter for software. It has the most configurable prompt channel that I've seen.

You talked about rear projection. Have you considered the pros and cons of front projection as well? Rear projection isn't always better (and neither is front; it has to be evaluated case-by-case).

[blbernheimer]

I see where you are going and that might be where we can take it in the future but with the constraints of the budget I may have to settle for half a loaf now. Regarding Rear projection vs front projection, the consideration is more from the standpoint of asthetics and having the accessibility of the rear located projector for classroom use in a pinch.

Bruce

[bcastle]

dont go cheap on the projector or light on the lumens simply because you only have $XX. Im in the same boat. Ideally we'd like dual screens/projectors and i have a 2000 lumen 5+yr old projector that cant project squat with lights on during the pastors message. Im looking at getting one viewsonic 8500 for $1600(i believe thats the model number) to replace the current one since i have an existing screen and mount to use. then later depending of if we do other plans, i'll request the 2nd projector and new screens or re-use the current one and just move it.

My point of telling you my story is that im trying to figure out my end result and then a plan to use several steps to get there with out having to buy new equipment. Ie the projector I get will have to work in the new place and the old one so i dont replace a perfectly good projector. Also i suggest running all the same type of cabling you think you are going to need and then additional cable at one time. Its easier and cheaper. Ie if your running 1 vga cable because youre going to start off with one projector and then go to 2 later, go ahead and run the two now.

[blbernheimer]

I hear you. I am not considering any projector at this point less than 3,000 lumens, even if a short throw. The possible addition of a monitor/flat screen outlside the worship area will be easy access through a roomy attic, but I might run an additional vga and cat 5e set to a 2nd future projection point in the worship center while I'm in the ceiling. I'm still hoping someone has experience with the vga extenders I referred to.

Thanks for your insight.
Bruce

[Vinnyw]

This sounds like a great vision to enhance your space and the worship functionality of it. I thought of a few things that you might also need/want to consider.

The type of surface on the screen is very important (often referred to as the 'gain' of the screen.) Screens with high gain are very reflective and return the maximum amount of light (thus requiring less light from the projector), however they have a more narrow viewing angle. Also, the higher the gain, the more retro-reflective the screen will be (reflects light back toward the projector). So, screen selection & placement and projector placement will have to be considered simultaneously.

My experience doesn't agree with avoiding VGA over CAT5 for long distances. What you don't pay for in hardware by avoiding CAT5, you end up paying for in buying high-grade VGA cabling; not to mention the hassles of fishing that huge connector through the path the cable has to follow to get from the source to the projector. And, you will feel compelled to pull out said cable if you decide to relocate the equipment at either end... with CAT5, you just leave it there and go buy more at under $100 per 1,000 ft.

Projector light output is rated using the standard lens; often, when operating at longer throw distances, the zoom lens that you need might be an f-stop or two lower (more open) than the standard lens...that means, for a given throw and zoom, you might not need as powerful of a projector. For example, I did a project in 2006 where - because my throw distance was 65 ft and the zoom lens had a small f-stop - I got just over 9,000 lumens (what was needed) from a 6,500 lumen projector, in that case, having a long throw actually saved several thousand dollars on the cost of the projector.

Particularly when your budget is tight, you have to be able to make a case for everything. If you can, it would be a good idea to have a light measurement for the locations for the proposed screens. You can then calculate exactly how much projector you need for a given contrast ratio. You might also want to take a light measurement at the current screen location for comparison. If you are satisfied with the contrast you currently have, then there is no need to go after a higher contrast which will only cost more money. If you find that the new screen locations have more light spill on them (either from lighting fixtures or from window sources) and that maintaining the contrast you have now won't fit in the current budget, you at least have data to demonstrate the need to adjust the budget.

If you opt for a ceiling mounted solution, I would highly recommend hiring a licensed rigger to perform the work. An object that falls from 20ft will be traveling at 24.5 MPH (yes, miles per hour) when it hits the floor. At 35ft, it is traveling at 32.3 MPH...you don't really want to take chances with gear over folks' heads. Professionals have training and (also as important) insurance that covers each job.

I hope that helps.

Vinny

[Esoteric]

What Vinny said.