Mics for Brass/Winds

[cw4u]

What are decent mics for brass and wind instruments. We have 4 Trombones and 2 Trumpet players and also have 2 clarinet players with one flute player. The two sections are physically separated on opposite sides of the stage. The brass section is only mic'd for broadcast but we do put the mics on the winds section in the house system to a fair degree.

My main issue is that the brass and wind mics bring in so much ambient noise that if we're using the choir, (which we use for about 90% of our services) that both the choir and brass/winds get so muddied up that it's basically pointless.

The trombones are located on the second level of a riser above the trumpets. Their is probably about 3 feet of spacing between the two groups. Close mic'ing really isn't an option since they are spread out so wide. Their is a small wall that goes up about 3.5 feet which I was thinking about attaching a PZM to and seeing how that sounded. We're using like an A-T 4040 (no success) on the trombones and a SM86 (works ok) on the trumpet. Also, the brass section uses two unpowered hotspots for monitoring.

The winds pick up a lot of room/stage noise as well. Flute is being mic'd overhead by an SM81 and the clarinets are being mic'd by a single A-T Hypercardioid. (something along the lines of a U873R) Winds are set up similarly to the brass. The clarinets are above the flute. The same wall exists. They use a single 8" floor monitor. I was thinking about just getting clip on mics for this section as it'd only be one more channel.

Any suggestions??

Thanks,

[buswheel]

Originally Posted by cw4u

. Close mic'ing really isn't an option since they are spread out so wide.

I assume here you actually mean group micing isn't really an option? If you are having issues with blead I would be looking at getting the mics as close to the instruments as possible to reduce the gain required to pick them up. Where possible I would be going with clip-on styles, but this isn't always possible (eg Brass players who used lots of mutes).

[cw4u]

Well group mic'ing definitely isn't an option. But, close mic'ing would only be an option if I went with a 1-1 situation. Would I have to worry about phase issues then?

[waynehoskins]

I used 25 channels of orchestra the other month on a local church production of A Christmas Carol, and the orchestra wasn't all that big, maybe 30 pieces or so. They were crammed into a loft the size of a shoebox (maybe a little bigger) at the edge of one side of the audience chamber. Lousy placement, and all packed in as they were, there was hardly any walking room. The brass were right next to the flutes and violins.

I used about half AKG C391Bs and half AKG C480/61 and a few C480/63 (hyper), trying to point the nulls in the pickup patterns at the loud nearby things. It worked surprisingly well, though not as much rejection as I'd have liked, and it sounded great. No audible phase issues I could detect.

[Gracetech]

My favorite close mic for most brass and even woodwinds is the Audio Technica ATM350 or even the Pro35. There are other great mics but i find these need very little work to sound great. These mics even sound great on stringed instruments. I don't say such great things about Audio Technica mics very often but i sure do luv these mics.

If you want cheap then go with a Shure SM57. Sure it doesn't sound as good but it's cheap.

crt

[cw4u]

On-stand mics with a small boom might do the trick. I think clip on's would work better than anything else. Other people have recommended a DPA 4099 but the price difference between them and a ATM350 is pretty decent. How much better is a DPA 4099? Is it even worth the difference in price? And then another suggestion was an Audix F90. I guess my point is how much of a difference is it between the Audix, A-T, or DPA?

[pdc]

Sennheiser MD421s, Beyerdynamic M88TGs (one of the most versatile mics around), EV RE20s, Shure SM7s....Royer ribbons, Cascade ribbons....

[Tim Padrick]

When the local symphony does their "with band" shows, I think they use a mic for every pair instrument on strings, and every other two or three on brass (I didn't pay that much attention, as I was doing backline for the band). SDCs for small strings, LDCs for big ones I think. Forget what was on the brass.

[bbrunskill]

I think that to get decent rejection, you'll have to close mic, using a channel+mic per instrument.
The old SM-57 works fine as a brass mic.
I've also seen the Sennheiser e609 used, and that sounded good.
There's also many more expensive mics that will work well, the Shure SM7 and the Sennheiser MD421 come to mind.

Basically, close mic with a dynamic. Treat it as you would treat a drum tom.
With the woodwinds, I would try to get cardioid condensers right up close. The SM81 would be a good choice. The Audio Technica ATM350 mentioned below looks like it would be excellent as well.

[waynehoskins]

Miking an orchestra is quite simple. Identify the part of the instrument the sound comes out of, and put a microphone in front of that.

When I did A Christmas Carol, the only exception to the mic-per-instrument rule were the strings, where I did two mics for every three violins and violas (there were three in a row per section). Everything else had its own mic. Surprisingly, it didn't take much to make them sound good.

[pdc]

I don't care for direct mic'ing a traditional orchestra. Personally, it seems goofy to amplify something acoustically large through a PA system. I used to mix/manage the Tulsa Philharmonic Orchestra and have mixed the KC Symphony. I used Schoeps, Neumanns, DPAs, etc. Never liked doing it.

[cmchamp]

I'm with Chad on the Pro35 or ATM350.
Wayne, the trouble with close mic'ing winds, especially reeds, is that characteristic sounds come out of more than one location of the instrument, not just the bell.
If you can get a clip on for the flute, such as http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/ADX10-FLP.shtml, there you go.
C.