computer as main board/mixer?

[bbak11010]

hey all,
We are trying to do a monthly praise night, and we are very tight on budget.. also lacking many equiptments.
So I was thinking if there is a way to use my laptop or computer as a main mixer instead of using a console.
I have an interface with 8 ch's that I use for recording.
We will be using only 3~5 mics and 3 for instruments. Also, is there a certain software for this?
It would be awesome if I could use the recording software or any type of software and add effects to the live sound. Any way to do this?
Any help is appreciated!!Thanks,

[waynehoskins]

There is something called Software Audio Console that is close (there are writeups here and elsewhere on the internet), but I'd guess your recording interface wouldn't be compatible with it. Could be wrong, read up on it.

With 8 channels, you could do it all in a Soundweb. I know Diana Krall's engineer travels with a London rack where he mixes. But that's beyond the scope of your question.

I think you'd be best suited with a conventional console. Perhaps a Mixwizard with outboard, or something like an older 01V, 02R, 03D if you want digital. The advantage to digital is that there's a lot of outboard built-in. If you have the money and time and tinkering expertise, the Software Audio Console may be a good fit, but it's not for everyone.

[petereit]

You might want to see if the open source software Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/) would work with your equipment.

[Brad Weber]

A common issue with trying to use a computer and common recording/production software for live sound is latency. For recording or production a great deal of latency, or delay due to the electronics and processing, is usually acceptable as long as everything experiences the same latency. However, in live sound you have a live component that is not going through the electronics and thus will not incur the same latency.

Software based solution to live mixing and processing, such as Software Audio Console or plug-ins for Avid/Digidesign Venue products, have address minimizing that latency. They also have to focus on avoiding any other software or computer functions from interfering with or adversely affecting the audio processing. That greatly dictates a dedicated computer.

This is not intended personally and is a general comment, but it is usually best for a church to avoid depending on any individual's equipment in order to have an operable sound system. Not only are there obvious potential issues such as what if there is a conflict when both you and the church need the equipment or if something happens to the gear while you are using it for your personal use, but there are also less obvious issues such as the church purchasing software that is loaded on someone's personal computer (and that could leave with that person). What happens if you get sick or your car breaks down or you have an accident on the way to church, is there a mad scramble to get the equipment from you?

Based on all that, if you wanted to mix from a computer then that suggests having a dedicated computer, sufficiently sized monitor(s), mixing and processing software, audio interface(s), any desired physical controllers and so on. Because it can scale quite effectively, for a larger and more complex mixing application a computer based system may be cost effective, but for 8-16 channels of basic mixing it would likely cost more than a basic dedicated mixer.

[Esoteric]

Yeah, a subcontractor of mine has a MixWizard that he leases out to small church plants and it sounds great. Nice little console.

Mike

[Frank DeWitt]

Software Audio Console is good stuff. I am a BIG fan but there are a few things that make it a poor fit here. First, the software costs $500 Not bad for 24 ch or 40 ch or 72 ch (it's max capacity) but for 8 channels, you could pick up an analog mixer in that price range. Second, while your laptop, or any laptop running windows would work to control SAC, it needs it's own computer to run the SAC Engine. It doesn't need anything fancy, I was using a very old Dell until I built a new computer for reliability reasons (The dell never failed, but I wanted to have two computers so I have a ready to go backup.) The new computer cost $450. Back on subject. The main computer running SAC must be dedicated. Your laptop and mine have all kinds of stuff running on them that doesn't bother us but will cause an interrupt in live sound. Just a few examples, the reason your computer knows when you put a CD or DVD in it and auto runs it, is that it checks every few seconds. It also checks for a network connection and runs the virus software. You will "hear" all of these as clicks. All this stuff is turned off in a well setup SAC computer.

Now the good side. If you are planning to go to 16 or 24 ch in the future, and you want to individually record each channel then SAC makes sense. There are at least two recording software that will work with SAC. SAWStudio is from the same company, intragrats very well, and is expensive. Reaper works well and is about $60

Neither one slows SAC down

BTW SAC has about 5 ms of latency That is about like moving the speakers 5 ft further away from the audience.

Frank

[bbak11010]

thanks all for some great advice and information. I guess I would have to go with the mixer instead of using the computer. I just wanted to know if using the computer may do it easier with less cost.
Again, thank you!!

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Frank DeWitt

BTW SAC has about 5 ms of latency That is about like moving the speakers 5 ft further away from the audience.

Since SAC is open in terms of hardware and plug-ins, it seems like the mixer input to mixer output latency could vary. So is the 5ms analog in to analog out or just for the SAC software aspect? Is the latency hardware/computer and/or path/processing dependent? I'm just curious as to what they total latency of a SAC system would be and how much it could range. For some comparison, the analog input to analog output latency for a LS9, M7CL, SC48, iLive-T, etc. is typically around 1.5 to 3 ms, so 5 ms, if that is the full input-to-output latency, is a bit more than many common digital consoles but not as bad as some other approaches.

FWIW, using some digital consoles with FireWire or USB connectivity in order to take analog inputs, route the signals to a computer to process them and then route the processed signals back out can get into 20-30 ms and greater latencies, which is very problematic for just about any live sound application.

[EmilBarnabas]

I did this several times 10 years ago with a Digi 002 rig. I did it so I could run sound and record the band in a small room where there wasn't room for my sound board or outboard processors.
One guitar player had extreme issues with the latency of his guitar in the monitors. I even took off all effects on his guitar, and it was still a problem for him.
I had the computer crash on two shows while doing this. Both times there were only about 10 people in the audience, so it wasn't a big problem having the band wait for me to reboot.
I wasn't getting paid for any of these gigs, so I experimented to see if this could be done.
One problem is you can't get to the faders real fast if you are using a trackpad or mouse.
It was neat to have compressors and EQs on each channel and on the mains without having any external racks.

I would suggest you find a cheap sound board rather then going the computer route. (someone has to have an old Peavy board hiding in a closet.)

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

Since SAC is open in terms of hardware and plug-ins, it seems like the mixer input to mixer output latency could vary. So is the 5ms analog in to analog out or just for the SAC software aspect? Is the latency hardware/computer and/or path/processing dependent? I'm just curious as to what they total latency of a SAC system would be and how much it could range. For some comparison, the analog input to analog output latency for a LS9, M7CL, SC48, iLive-T, etc. is typically around 1.5 to 3 ms, so 5 ms, if that is the full input-to-output latency, is a bit more than many common digital consoles but not as bad as some other approaches.

FWIW, using some digital consoles with FireWire or USB connectivity in order to take analog inputs, route the signals to a computer to process them and then route the processed signals back out can get into 20-30 ms and greater latencies, which is very problematic for just about any live sound application.

The Latency depends on two things There is a fixed inherent latency in the software (very small) and there is a latency in the hardware you chose. SAC tests software plugins on install and won't run one with latency. The 5ms number I gave was actually 4.6 ms and was measured with my rig using MOTU 2408 for I/O and is analog in to analog out. A hotter computer would allow me to use different settings on the MOTU and reduce this but it is always fixed for all paths through the system.

BTW The MOTU 2408 will support 2 ADAT inputs and outputs as well as it's own analog I/O so I connected two Behringer ada8000s to the MOTU and tested the audio in and out of them (Analog into B ADAT to MOTU, to computer, back to MOTU, back to B There was no difference.

BBTW In order to get more accuracy we setup SAC to route each input to just one output (no mixing) and external jumped each output to a input so that we had 48 ch of A to D and 48 of D to A. This allowed for a more accurate measurement. Having done all that, I couldn't resist plugging in a music source and listening to it. I was amazed that after 48 conversions, the music sound good. Very good. 220 ms late, but good

Frank

[avhays]

This is proabably out of your price range, but 6-8 'myMix' units would work without needing to buy a sound board (google 'mymix'). There are two inputs per myMix. You would get personal monitor mixers and recording (not multitrack) also. A myMix unit is about the cost of an Aviom. I've never used them so I cannot vouch for sound quality. However, it's all digital.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by avhays

This is proabably out of your price range, but 6-8 'myMix' units would work without needing to buy a sound board (google 'mymix'). There are two inputs per myMix. You would get personal monitor mixers and recording (not multitrack) also. A myMix unit is about the cost of an Aviom. I've never used them so I cannot vouch for sound quality. However, it's all digital.

Well, you did say it was probably out of his price range, but one Mymix equals one nice analog mixer ($649) and 6 of them equal a few digital mixers such as one of the PreSonus Studio Live, or the Yamaha 01v96 or a SAC 24 ch in and out with 6 personal mixers for IEMs

Frank