computer as main board/mixer?

[bbak11010]

Again, thanks for all your inputs. I didn't know it would be so complicated to do that. We just finished our event and ended up renting an analog mixer to do the work.

[Soundman89]

I have an M-Audio Profire2626 & Protools 8.

The way I would do it is run into the interface, arm all the channels and run out of the output to the amp and/or powered speakers.

Really depends on your software. If you on a PC I believe there is a free software called Mixcraft 4. I haven't used a PC constantly for about 3 years... But any software tat will read your interface with all the channels separate will work. (might have latency issues)

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Soundman89

I have an M-Audio Profire2626 & Protools 8.

The way I would do it is run into the interface, arm all the channels and run out of the output to the amp and/or powered speakers.

Really depends on your software. If you on a PC I believe there is a free software called Mixcraft 4. I haven't used a PC constantly for about 3 years... But any software tat will read your interface with all the channels separate will work. (might have latency issues)

I think the point that was made is that most people who have tried similar approaches have experienced latency issues. Keep in mind that with recording and production latency is not really an issue as long as everything experiences the same latency, but that is not the case with live sound applications.

[buggyboy]

Quick question...

What is the smallest SAC system one could build. I suppose I'm asking what is the cheapest you could build, or actually...how many inputs/outputs/mixes you get with the cheapest SAC setup available?

How much would say, an 8 channel SAC cost? 6 channel?

[Frank DeWitt]

The smallest would be two using the computers built in sound card. The practical limit is cost. For two, you need a computer (example, $300 used) and the software $500 so $800 is a lot of money for a small mixer.

I think the smallest practical mixer is the above computer and software with a MOTU 2408 for input output access and 8 ch of line input and 8 output and a 8 ch preamp such as the ART TubeOpto8 for microphone inputs. Now for $1300 you have a 8 mic in 8 line in 16 out digital mixer with all the stuff digital brings to the party and adding more ch gets cheaper (That MOTU will take one more 8 ch mic preamp and two more if you want to give up the line ins.)

Of course you need a monitor or two, and you will probably want some fades.

A good 32 ch system with the extras (two monitors, and 16 faders) can be built for $4,000

Frank

[buggyboy]

So the chunks involved here are
computer - any - ~$300 (what specs are needed?)
software - SAC - $500
interface - Motu - ~$300
preamp - art - ~$300

The motu is an analog to digital converter? so 1/4 plugs in, digital stream out to computer...correct?

the art preamp is needed to connect xlr to the motu?

I've never looked at the DAW stuff before, so it's all a bit fuzzy. The reason i'm intrigued is that this software based system has virtually all the advantage of a digital console, but might end up costing significantly less if one could live without knobs and buttons.

thanks

[Frank DeWitt]

Your close,
So the chunks involved here are
computer - You don't need much computer but it must be one of the right ones. It is all about leaving the MOTU card alone, (no interrupts on it's buss,) and setting the computer up with a stripped down version of windows. (No internet, no email, no checking the CD to see if there is one in there, ETC and using just one core, you can have a dule core, but use just one. If you have one laying around, try it, If not you can scratch build one that will run 72 ch for $450. Check the SAC forum and you will find many that will work. I started with a 7 year old Dell. The old Dell ran at 73%, the new computer runs at 23% The Dell is still the backup.


software - SAC - $500
interface - Motu 2408 MK II with PCI card about $250 on Ebay.
preamp - art - ~$350

A behringer ADA-8000 will work, and costs $170 but they are unreliable. (I will sell you one cheep)

The motu 2408 is an analog to digital converter yes, and it talks to the PC so 1/4 plugs in, digital stream in/out to computer and 1/4 in line out.

The MOTU 2408 has 8 ch of analog line audio in, and 8 ch of analog audio out, AND it will accept the ADAT (digital optical) in out of up to 3 8 channel preamp such as the ART tube 8

Put another way, the MOTU is your gateway from the computer to 8 or 16 or 24 inputs and outputs.

That MOTU PCI card that I mentioned will handle up to 3 MOTU 2408s so that means that with one computer and card you can handle up to 72 channels.

BTW The MOTU contains a headphone amp and front panel jack for your cans, and SAC treats that channel like any other which means you can add delay to match it to your speakers up front.

Here is a typical layout
http://lbpinc.com/Posible-SAC.PDF

the art preamp is needed to connect xlr to the motu? Correct.

There are other selections of hardware but this is a popular one.

The forum will give you the details.
http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/...isplay.php?f=7

BTW adding the knobs and buttons will cost about $600 more, and they can be added at any time.

BBTW You don't get one mixer, You get 20. for instance, if you want a separate monitor mixer on the platform with let's say 8 outputs for monitors, then find any old PC at all that will run windows and has a network card. Run CAT 5 to the master PC and you have your second mixer. It has every channel input the FOH has, it just sends them to different outputs. Want to record the service and want to mix it live in a sound proof room, Get another cheep PC, use up one channel output for the record and one for the cans, and you have your 3rd mixer.

Here is what our church mixer looks like http://lbpinc.com/SAC-LBC.jpg
Frank

[buggyboy]

Thanks for the great post, I can see the fog lifting a bit.

One last question perhaps... Where are the motu and art located? on stage or in the booth. I think I can see the art in the photo (bottom of left stack)

I actually see them both in that stack.
does this setup will still require copper snakes. as opposed to a digital ethernet snake?

From the xrl inputs this looks like a 16 channel setup, but the screens show more than that...around 32+?

[Frank DeWitt]

There is another rack with another MOTU and two more Preamps and a patch bay, out of the picture. There are 16 XLR in the pix, and 16 in the other rack, plus 16 line ins. We put everything in the booth because we had good copper to the booth.

You can put it all on the platform and run a CAT5 to a remote PC in the booth. (many people who do this will also run a second CAT5 for cans, talkback, CD player ETC.)

You can put it all on the platform as above and run a Ethernet KVA to the booth.

You can split it, and run one or two 8 channel in / out preamps through a ADAT (optical) to CAT5 converter and run to the booth that way.

One thing you need to know, The Preamps have gain adjust, but it is not controllable from the computer. This is not the problem I thought it would be because there is a lot of head room with the digital system, but it isn't set it and use it for anything either. To illustrate. I have found that the gain I set for a vocalist, will work for any vocalist, but that same gain won't work for the mic inside the piano.

What this means in real life is that if your preamps are on stage, on your first setup, you will need to take your laptop with you, and go on stage and adjust them one time for that gig.

We have them right in the booth, but they are not adjusted for weeks at a time. some haven't been touched since we put the system in.

Frank

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by buggyboy

One last question perhaps... Where are the motu and art located? on stage or in the booth. I think I can see the art in the photo (bottom of left stack)

I actually see them both in that stack.
does this setup will still require copper snakes. as opposed to a digital ethernet snake?

The MOTU PCI card is in the computer while the actual interfaces and/or the computer can be at FOH or at the stage. Although not an Ethernet or CAT based approach, you can have the interfaces at the stage and the computer at FOH with SAC thus providing a form of 'digital snake'. However, if the interfaces are located at the stage then you may have limited control of some aspects of the interfaces such as the mic preamps. Some people find compromises in how they adjust the preamps that they deem acceptable and if your situation involves pretty much the same sources, musicians, setup, etc. for every use then that may be a viable option. Others use more expensive audio interfaces that support remote preamp control and monitoring. And many simply forego the 'digital snake' aspect and locate the interfaces within reach of the operator at at FOH. Similar issues apply to aspects such as being able to monitor and cue at FOH, you would need some way to get the audio and if the interfaces are all at the stage then that audio has to be addressed.

It might also be worth noting that in a most basic configuration SAC has no user interfaces and all mixing is performed on screen, therefore a good monitor and mouse are likely appropriate which could be an additional cost. We have a couple of computers around here that could probably form the basis for a SAC system but I'd want to get a new monitor and mouse in order to use any of them for that purpose.

On the 'multiple mixers' concept, I find that it helps to look at it from the perspective that the software supports multiple virtual mixers but you need a computer of some form, a network connection to the primary SAC computer and some free software, along with any related audio wiring, to implement one of those available virtual mixers. This means it's one of those situations where if you already have the computers, the required network connectivity, etc. then it can be a very inexpensive option to get multiple mixes, however if you need to procure everything from scratch specifically for this application then the cost can be much higher.

And of course the other aspects to the 'cost' of any SAC system is what the time and effort required to initially setup and configure and then also maintain a SAC system are worth. You can buy a packaged and warrantied SAC system, but at a cost and while some of the cost savings in SAC is potentially in the hardware used but much of it comes from investing your own time and effort rather than paying for someone else's. Some people find that perhaps the most attractive aspects of SAC but it also means it is not necessarily the right, or even a practical, solution for every application.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

On the 'multiple mixers' concept, I find that it helps to look at it from the perspective that the software supports multiple virtual mixers but you need a computer of some form, a network connection to the primary SAC computer and some free software, along with any related audio wiring, to implement one of those available virtual mixers. This means it's one of those situations where if you already have the computers, the required network connectivity, etc. then it can be a very inexpensive option to get multiple mixes, however if you need to procure everything from scratch specifically for this application then the cost can be much higher.

What tends to happen is that you will want a remote for walking around setup at the very least. This pushes you into getting a little wireless router and putting it on the main computer. (BTW run a secure hidden wireless network)

Now if you want another mixer you need a PC, interface, (monitor and mouse) and audio outputs. Because you tend to get a output with every input when you buy hardware, outputs are usually not a problem. As Brad says, wiring is a issue. You can use conventional means to get the audio out from the preamps or MOTUs to your monitor amps (not to the mixer,) or what some people will do is put one preamp on stage for just this reason. They have 8 inputs, but they also have 8 outputs for monitors or IEMs and they tie that preamp back to the FOH with adapters and CAT5.

I will back up what Brad said. There is a lot of hardware and a lot to figure out. The up side is that you have tremendous versatility. I saw a system setup for a Easter special with preamps at both ends of the stage, in the balcony, and in a remote room, He used them like sub snakes, taking inputs and supplying IEM output as he went. The mix location was on the main floor (a laptop, monitor, mouse, and 8 faders,)

The down side is that if you are looking for plug and play this ain't it. If you are looking for call this number with questions this ain't it.

Frank

[buggyboy]

Yeah, no doubt at all there is plenty of learning curve on this type of setup. I don't have the funds, need, or desire to try anything with this at the moment, but this is the first i had heard of the SAC system. reminds me of the first software based radio systems for ham radio operators. complex, but getting better, and with tremendous potential.

I'll file these ideas away and see what if anything may come of it one day.

I could see the costs coming down on the hardware interfaces until one day we wake up and all any church would need is a few boxes on stage, a dedicated computer, and a few ethernet cables. good times that.

thanks for the info.
Peace