Running Sound to Balcony

[micah68]

Hello All,

I have what I hope is a simple question. We have a contemporary worship band that plays for our services (several singers, keys, tracks, guitars, drums, etc.). For a while now the have mostly "mixed themselves" so to speak which was never ideal. What we plan to do is buy a new sound board for all worship sound (I think we're going with the Soundcraft GB4-32) and place it in the balcony. This will serve for the band as well as wireless mics, pulpit mics, choir, etc. To run from the balcony we are going to permanently wire all of the XLR we need from the balcony to the stage. For what we need we will likely have about 30-40 XLRs and the like going from the balcony to the stage. The stage is approx. 200-250ft from the balcony depending on how the cable is run. For this much cable I'm assuming we ought to buy it in bulk. What brand/kind of cable is the best? Should we install conduit and run it through that? Is this much cable ok to run ourselves? Should we have a company do it? I'd appreciate any help you might have! God Bless.

Nick

[stevelam]

I would absolutely recommend a conduit to run the cable.

Can anyone at the church solder or has anyone put on XLR ends before? I would suggest buying a snake with the box on one end (to serve as a junction box between your snake and the floor pocket wiring) and a cut end on the other side. Then run the snake through the conduit, put the end on and plug into the soundboard. Then you can connect floor pockets or sub snake into the main snake box and voila you have your connections.

I have always had great luck with Rapco. They have fair prices and they make great products.

[micah68]

We have a few electricians in our church and on our tech team so they should be able to help us out in that area. I was just intending to buy bulk cable and run the lengths we need to a floor pocket instead of buying a pre-built snake. I didn't think there are any pre-made cables that are long enough or any that have at least 30 ins.

[jonack]

I think how you run the cable depends on your specific situation. There are some situations where you don't need to run it through conduit. The cost of installing it in conduit is going to be pretty expensive and you don't necessarily have to do it through conduit. Check with a certified and licensed electrician if you are required by the laws in your state/city if you have to run it through a conduit, or if you are required to do plenum rated cable.

200-300 feet of 2-3" conduit with the proper bends and junction boxes, plus install is going to be a very expensive endeavor. Steel prices are still rising and even if you do it with all volunteer labor it is still going to take a long time to install that much conduit.

I might suggest doing a quick disconnect at one end and the fan out to your sound board at the other. Then you can pull the quick disconnect to the stage and connect that to a stage box on your stage. There are quite a few companies that only charge a little extra for custom snakes, but doing 200-300 fee shouldn't be a very large issue.

A quick use of the great google machine turned up a Whirlwind 32 channel snake with 8 XLR returns, at 250' for $1700 + s/h. I am sure that if you contacted Whirlwind or Rapco they could make it in a customized snake that fits your needs for not a whole lot more...

[micah68]

If we were to purchase a pre-built snake, I'm not sure if it could be run to the mix position. This is for a permanent install. Could you pull the cable with the connectors as is?

[waynehoskins]

With a large enough conduit, you can pull the fanout through as-is. The other option is to cut off the connectors from the fanout and reassemble it after it's pulled.

If at all possible, it would be better to mix from the orchestra rather than the balcony. Is that possible?

[[Admin] osborn4]

Agreed about position. We're moved to the back of the house (but not under the balcony) and it's made quite a difference.

[jonack]

You can purchase pre-built snakes with a quick disconnect at the stage box end. It is a multi-pin connector that basically screws onto the stage box end. You would pull the quick disconnect from the mix position all the way to the stage and then connect the stage box. This would require no soldering, no large diameter conduit and it also means that if you needed to move the snake or mix position (say you want to move to the floor in front of the balcony (not under it!), you wouldn't have to chop the end off of the fan out...

Just a few things to think about...

[WaynePflughaupt]

Originally Posted by micah68

What we plan to do is buy a new sound board for all worship sound (I think we're going with the Soundcraft GB4-32) and place it in the balcony.

Better make sure your electricians run power from the breaker panel that’s serving your stage equipment to the new mix position. Otherwise you might well end up with a nasty ground loop.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt



My Bass Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly

[Frank DeWitt]

There are a number of good cables. I have used Belden and Gepco. there are a couple of issues to think about.

one. Do you need a plenum grade wire (it has to do with fire and codes.
two Some cables are individually shielded pairs with foil and a drain wire. the foil is a pain to terminate and all pairs are the same color. Some cables have a PVC cover for each channel and are numbered. Both will work fine, but the later is easier to use.

You can buy bulk, or have one end terminated. At our church we have a snake from the booth to a room beside the stage, then individual 6 ch cables going to each of a number of floor pockets. The two are joined with screw terminals. It works out great.

Don't forget 6 or so return pairs for amps, monitor amps intercom, ETC.

While you are running the cable, I would pull at least 4 CAT 5 cables. the stuff is cheep and very useful. (IEMs, DMX control, talk back, network to the projector, video, (Better run 6 grin)

I like the idea of running AC power as well to keep everything on the same feed, but the AC must be in conduit or BX if it will run near the snake.


If I was going to do this and had a good budget and a room back stage I would buy the snake cable (or two cables) with one end terminated in XLR panel mounted jacks, this would go in the booth. I would then buy 6 or so floor pockets with 6 XLR jacks each and 6 channel snakes long enough to reach the back room. Then I would join the two together in a nice DIN Rail close spaced terminal block. That is just one of a couple of dozen ways to do it.

BTW It looks like you are looking at about $1500 to $2000 for the snake with ends. If you have dreamed of a digital board, some of them would need nothing but one or two CAT5 cables from stage to mixer. That could help pay for digital.

Frank

[Tim Padrick]

The Soundcraft is a nice console, but I prefer the comparable Allen & Heath. Although if you use a lot of outboard, or have to make a lot of changes between services, it might be time to go digital.

[Brad Weber]

My $0.02 worth....

Conduit is generally an inexpensive investment. If plenums are involved, running in conduit through those areas can prevent having to use plenum rated cable. But even if plenums are not a factor, the protection and ability to make future changes provided by having a conduit path can be of great value. That value may be enhanced if the cable runs through areas that would later be difficult or impractical to access. Using EMT or metallic conduit can also help avoid noise from light fixtures, nearby power runs, etc.

Conduit has to be sized per code, so you'd want some idea of what may be run in it before sizing it. And anything larger than 1-1/4" conduit may be more of a challenge in terms of terminating it into wall or floor boxes. You can always use a stepper bit to enlarge the conduit entries on boxes, however doing so loses any UL listing for the box.

There are pros and cons to all of the different approaches to cabling noted. The biggest problem I have in terms of larger snakes in permanent installs is that any problems with any pairs in the future can mean having to pull an entirely new snake rather than just one or two pairs.

The idea of an intermediary termination point, be it a box or terminal strips, is one I have often used, but a critical factor is to have that intermediate point be accessible but secure. You want to be able to access it when needed, but not have it where just anyone can readily access it at any time. I will often do what Frank mentioned and put a large NEMA box off stage, run all the stage lines to that box and then group those into a limited number of larger bundles back to the mix position.

Multipin connection are nice for connections that will often be changed, but in a permanent install where the connections would not changed they may be just another point for things to go wrong or an impediment for any modifications and repairs in the future.

I would consider running some extra pairs to various locations. This represents some additional cost up front but if you ever have a pair go bad or want to add a connection, it can quickly pay for itself.

Frank also made a good point that a digital console that employs a digital snake may be something to consider as it could reduce the runs to the mix position to being a couple of CAT cables and possibly even still allow mixing wirelessly from the stage when desired. By the time you account for the potential savings in cable and conduit, and the related time and effort to install it, and the likely much smaller physical footprint at the mix position, the cost difference may start to be better justified.