Help Tony Kanago

[rbcyouthdude]

I know you do a lot of stuff in Linux. I have several old computers I want to set up in the youth room. I want to put linux on them, one that is easy to operate for a newby. I put xandros on two but they are really slow. Which version of Linux comes with everything but will run OK on older computers (P-200)

Thanks
Michael

Any reason you want to use Linux? I'm 100% Windows

[Tony Kanago]

Well, other than it being -really, really, really- fun to have someone ask for you in specific, there are at least a couple other Linux users around here! Don't forget them.

Anyway, distrobutions themself have their own specific details, but what you're more likely interested in is the Window Manager, (IE., how the user interface looks. You could have something resembling Windows or Mac, or a few other options.) Generally, when people say Linux runs well on weaker computers, they mean without a Window Manager, but even with, it's pretty slick.

First of all, can you give me a bit more detail on the computers and what you'd like to do with them? Internet browsing and email are usually the big ones, maybe instant messengers, image viewers, word processors, and so on.

Here's something to try for now-
As long as you have CD Drives on the computers, change the BIOS setting to boot from a CD before a hard drive. (Ask about this if needed, as there are plenty of people here who can talk you through that as well.) Try a few different LiveCDs, such as Slax, Kubuntu, or Knoppix. In short, these are copies of the operating system that will boot and run right from the CD, graphical user interface. If you've never done Linux before, I suggest Kubuntu, found here.

Burn this disk image, .iso file, to disk using an application such as Nero from Windows.

There are two mainstream Window Managers for Linux that are really user friendly-
KDE and Gnome. KDE is similar to Windows, and very easy to use. Gnome is similar to Mac in it's chic-ness and simplicity, and also has lower system requirements. For now, just try KDE on the computers you want to run in this lab. We can work out more details after you give me an update on its performance. If you have problems with downloading or burning the image, you can order a CD from http://www.ubuntu.com/ for free, but I believe you pay for shipping.
(If you can't tell, I'm answering in a hurry, so I'll write way more detail as soon as possible! )

Once you have the disk image burned and the BIOS set, simply pop the disk into the computer and restart, and see how things go. With older hardware, there is a bit of guess and check involved.

[blwells45]

Originally Posted by NazEric

Any reason you want to use Linux? I'm 100% Windows

While I don't want to get an arguement started here, I would say one of the major benefits of Linux over Windows is the whole licensing cost. You have to buy a license for the OS and then for everything you put on it. With Linux, you get it all. And depending on the flavor, you can get it all for free. Now, I'm not trying to start a war over which is better, Windows or Linux. Nor am I wanting to get into the TCO arguments. But, the up front cost for software, and especially for an older machine (good luck trying to get XP to run on that) Linux could be a solution.

Now, having said that, while I'm not anywhere in Tony's league, my flavor of choice for Linux is Fedora. I cut my teeth on RedHat and have never really found any that made me "want" to switch. The one that did come closest was Ubuntu. Slick install, very easy to use. And they'll send you a CD for free.

[rbcyouthdude]

$$$$$$$ or use versions of win 98 that I don't own.
and to let some of the kids know there are other options out there.
I am trying out xandros on my laptop and really like it.
If I could drive a free car I would.



I knew there were other Linux folks on here, just could not remember who.
Just want the kids to have something to play around with. Some show up an hour or so before time to start. These will not be on the net but I may network them. Wanted them to be able to use openoffice to do homework or just play a few games.
I have tried Knoppix and it is also very slow. It has an install to hard drive option but these computers don't meet the requirements. I think they have 64 megs of ram. I'm just trying t save them from the dumpster. They will end up in Ghana Africa after I test them awhile. I also have puppy Linux and DSL Linux burned to disk but have not tried them yet.

thanks for the reply

Michael

just when I thought Windows had corrupted the minds of the youth...

I've heard arguments of trying to involve kids in fine arts instead of sports, or books instead of tv, but I've never heard one about operating systems

[Tony Kanago]

OpenOffice is known for being very slow, also. KOffice for KDe is a good alternative.

I'll post more later, promise!

Originally Posted by Tony Kanago

OpenOffice is known for being very slow, also. KOffice for KDe is a good alternative.

I'll post more later, promise!

ok i cant sleep dont know why,

they call linux the poor mans operating system, slap together a box out of spare parts, put linux on it and viola instant computer

i run ubuntu breezy badger 5.10 on my server at home, love it, just got World of Warcraft to run on it, took months to get it to run but it is not fully implemented yet, kinda sorta maybe runs on even numbered days when the clock is at the .30 position

trying to get windows programs to run in linux even with wine, is almost like pulling teeth, yes i can get basic programs to run like winzip and older software, but nothing like photoshop, audition or several other software programs we need, the issue is dll files, you need a fully custom dll library to make windows run in linux

yes you can do MOST of what windows does but not all, photoshop wont run, nothing microsoft based will run, like power point and word, in openoffice you can run and make ppt stuff but you will have issue with importing the latest office files, i know i have office 03 SBE, and as was said, openoffice is sluggish at best

but i bet that you will never get any worship software to run in linux as they are most based on some form of power point integration by microsoft

we are a 100% Windows shop at church, a mix of 2000 pro, 2k server and XP Pro, if i had my way, most would be on ubuntu so they cant mess it up with viruses and garbageware and say did i do that

DSL is good, i have an old copy of Storm Linux thats now defunct, i settled on Debian based Distros Debian is a crossbreed of OpenBSD and Linux, which i like BSD and Debian also keep in mind, ATI cards are closed drivers, and are resistant to open their propietary drivers up to an open community, if you run nVidia cards this is good, but in 100% of the largest TV Studios in the world, they run ATI reason...reliability

NEW ATI cards can be somewhat hard to run, UBUNTU has a install of 30 of the most popular free programs (real player, java, ati drivers, etc) in one install package, i guess what i am saying, is that most drivers for linux are 3-6 months out of step with a windows released driver, also i have read about serious problems with Pci-E cards on non 64 bit platforms

linspire formaly known and lindows runs most window software out of the box...for a price, free is great till you need it to do something like run windows products and then you need to pay for it because of devlopment costs

my first distro was mandrake 5, then moved to fedora and then to Xandros then to Debian and now UBUNTU the first 2 are free, the last is pay for software

go to http://www.distrowatch.com and they have them all with full information on most if not all the distros out there

[Tony Kanago]

Well, getting Window's applications to run is sort of a mixed topic. It's possible to get just about any Window's application to run on Linux without paying, but it can take some pretty crafty work, (missing DLLs, drivers, and so on,) to make it go. Of course, there are always applications like Cedega and CrossOver Office that make those applications run without work on Linux.

But, most would ask, short of a really bizarre situation, why move to Linux if you're just going to run Windows applications on it? Gimp is a fine replacement for Photoshop considering the cost, especially with things like GIMPShop to make it feel more like PS. KOffice and OpenOffice are good Word replacements, but there are times where it is more necessary to have MS Office simply for compatibility's sake.

Unix and Linux weren't exactly ever created completely with a Desktop in mind. The Linux community has signficantly improved the standard, and the push for Linux on the desktop is getting stronger. The compatibility issues between worship software and Linux is another subject. Those applications were designed with Windows as the -sole- platform for the most part. OpenSong, I believe it's called, was designed to be open-source on the GPL2 liscense, and completely cross-platform. Like I said earlier, though, you can run almost any Windows application on Linux, including MSOffice, so I may just have to give the Worship Software thing a try.

As far as development costs keeping down serious application design? No way! Some of the -best- software out there is open source. Just ask Walla or Pete! Most of the software running on Tim's server is open source, even the kernel! Don't count OSS out just because it's free.

Anyway! For now, I highly recommend simply trying a few Live Distrobutions right off the CD, and getting back to us on how well it runs. KDE makes it very easy to knock down the quality of visual effects to make it more useful on weaker computers, plus it resembles Windows enough that a handful of youth wouldn't have too many problems.

Don't bash muh Leeh-Nux! :P

[blwells45]

So well put Tony. I couldn't agree more. Definately Live CD's are a great idea.

Obviously with Linux, as with any other software "tools" so much boils down to:
1. What you're wanting to use it for. For example, while having Adobe Premiere Pro would be nice, the average person would find it overkill for putting together a simple home movie.
2. Personal preference. Some people like Ford. And some people like Chevy. Some like Macs and some like PCs. Some like EasyWorship and some like SongShow Plus. Some like Fedora and some like Ubuntu.

[Tony Kanago]

Also well said, Sir. The biggest thing to stress about choice of operating system is just what it's going to be used for, as you said. For a simple web server with PHP, MySQL, and Perl, I'd -never- use Windows! For a complicated active directory setup with MSAccess, why not use Windows?

As far as desktops go, when you're limiting things to just a few small games, email, browsing, and word processing, Linux is generally a much better choice costwise, (both liscensing and hardware,) but can cost much more in work hours to have it setup properly. Windows is much more appropriate for a fairly normal situation, such as a few desktops of over 1ghz, but when you stretch on hardware, it's worth the effort for Linux.

Personally, no, I do not use Linux for my desktop. All to often I find myself forced to use Windows applications that leave me in a situation where it's just worth the cost to use Windows instead of making them work under Wine. Alternatively, I still use Linux from within Windows using VMWare, as I make builds of the game project I work with just about every other day. Of course, they're Linux builds, so I can't even cheat and build them in Cygwin! Darn you, PE format!

Assuming you can get Linux running successfully from a LiveCD, I would probably suggest you use either FreeBSD or Ubuntu/Kubuntu for the actual operating system, as you'll have a much easier time managing it with instructions from us here. As for a desktop manager, I'd probably lean towards KDE over Gnome, thanks to its lower learning curve compared for those used to Windows. Here are the applications I'd probably suggest having installed as you think more about the final purpose of the machines-

Kopete, (instant messenger, of course you could disallow this period or force them to use an online messenging application such as http://www.meebo.com/,)
Konqueror and Firefox Browsers
Noatun, XMMS, KPlayer, and AmaroK media players with codecs for everything, including Windows Media
KDE Games Pack
KOffice, Office Suite

Is there anything else anyone can think of for general types of applications to cover in a simple computer lab? Email clients don't seem important..

Also, kids will very simply be unable to install -anything- on the computers or mess with any critical files, period. Viruses and spyware are fine, and as long as you aren't forwarding any services to outside your network, you're moderately hack-proof.

If you want some quick reference or screenshots of the desktop managers, check these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE
Also remember, the look of both of these can be changed dramatically, very easily.

[rbcyouthdude]

thanks for all the info, I am downloading a Kubuntu live CD as we type. I will try it out and see.

Michael