Advice: Seeking to Change where I am ministering

[in prayer]

First let me say that I am a regular here at CMN, and I created this account so that I may remain anonymous throughout this discussion.

I appreciate you respecting that.

I have been working at our church for sometime now and have increasingly grown frustrated and unhappy with a number of things.

Our leadership is very efficient at times and has great visions which I certainly can appreciate.

However, I have found some biblical lines becoming blurred and a cut throat attitude emerging in some respects.

Our church is becoming to growth driven and not paying enough attention to the shrinking congregation we currently have.

I use this term very loosely, but I have "butted" heads with leadership just a handful of times. I am always very respectful and make it known that I respect them and honor them. In these instances I have seen personality and character traits that I am not crazy about.

In the last year it has grown worse, money has been spent in ways that has been hard for me to stomach, volunteers time, energy, and emotions have been used in ways I disagree with, and I feel that even I have been used in a manner that I don't think is right.

Now I am not saying that I am the epitome of righteousness and that just because I am thinking something is wrong, it automatically is. I don't think that at all.

I am going through a trying time, my wife and I both are. It is hard to get fed in service because of the work I am doing then, it is hard to have time with family because of the hours I work, and it has been clearly stated to me a number of times that regardless of how many hours I must work to achieve the projects goal, it must be done.

I have found an opening at a smaller church, not small, but smaller...maybe not as big is the more correct way to phrase it.

I have been in prayer for some time that God would show me where to go or what to do. I am not much for signs as they can be interpreted in a number of ways, however this particular ministry position was posted on my birthday, and is in the same relative area that we currently are.

I have talked to a former employee there and like a great deal of what he had to share about the churches mentality and manner of which to do things. Not to mention their emphasis on ministry.

My questions for advice are these:

How do I handle what I am going through at my current church? Do I wait it out, do I pray it out? I don't know that there is much more I can do to talk it out.

I am of the opinion that I don't want to look for another job/ministry without first consulting my current Pastor. I don't know if God could bless that endeavor if it were in a sense sneaking around behind where I currently minister. I am also of the opinion that once I make it known that I am looking for another church to minister in, I may have my employment ended. At separate times my wife and I both had the same idea of trying to initiate an informal meeting with a staff member at the church with the open position, hoping this would allow us to find out if this is the kind of church we would like to work for, and if they thought we might be the right candidate for their open position. Please share you thoughts and opinions on this matter.

Please share any other advice any of you might have. This is a very trying time for our family right now. We went through a similar ministry change a few years back, much uglier than this one, but ministry changes are not always the easiest thing to go through. God did make our transition a good one, we still believe God did send us to this church, we just are trying to find out if it is time for a new season in our ministry. Please share any advice or encouragement that you might have.

Thank you for your time.

Happy New Year and most importantly God Bless

[shayward]

Has your church experienced a change in leadership in the past couple of years? Anywhere within the last 3 years?

Everyone is probably sick of me using the word but it is a legitimate problem in churches, corporations, and societies. But the word is "Narcissism". I have personally witnessed it in one church situation and know about it in another.

Sometimes the narcissism belongs to one person in leadership and sometimes a narcissistic culture evolves amongst otherwise non-narcissistic people. Either way, it's toxic. And either way, short of a miracle, it cannot (by its very nature) recognize itself and thus repent and thus heal.

Halmarks include:

- Projects become more important than people
- People's only use is to serve the goals of a project (or the stroking of a narcissists ego)
- Refusal to listen to any outside ideas
- Descenting views interpretted as personal attacks
- Easy ability to hurt others without realizing it, and "lip service" paid as an apology but not real remorse
- Easy ability to play the hurt party or be offended
- Exageration of project benefits or personal knowledge/connections
- Downplay of impending damage or failure
- Inability to genuinely empathize with other people's suffering (but a strong ability to fake it when it serves a purpose)
- A refusal to give up power until things are wrecked beyond recognition (in which case it was everyone else's failure that caused it) or until power is taken from them by force (in which case they are the persecuted hero that the wicked have driven away)

My wife's family attended a small, rural church. It was thriving and alive. A new Pastor came in - he interviewed well, and said all of the right things. After about a year of holding the ship steady, the Pastor announced his 5 year plan. The plan focused on growth and projects.

Some of the "old faithful" weren't sure about the new direction. And so little by little, through attrition, they were removed from positions of authority. The Pastor slowly and carefully manipulated the situation until all of his leadership had something strangely in common... it was fully made up of low-income single mothers whose husbands had left them and who had no previously-strong leadership experience.

I'm NOT picking on single moms or or poor moms or divorced moms, and I'm NOT saying that they cannot be in positions of authority or leadership. Please don't take me wrong here and don't send the politically-correct-police to knee-cap me. I mean, my wife is a Pastor and I'm not.

But finding one's self in a specific set of long-term circumstances has a tendency to mold a person into a particular personality make-up. In the case I'm describing, it gave the Pastor unquestioned authority over all aspects of the church, to do anything he saw fit. And he did just that. And no one could stop him. The "leadership" would all stand up for him and support him no matter what.

The church started bleeding people, the church was breaking, and the Pastor's income went down. He had a line on another job for a Christian organization but it would be a year before it opened up so he had to stay afloat until then. So he started selling off various properties owned by the church to keep his income up until he could move into the new job. One of the properties was rented by a new convert couple that had started attending the church. They're house was sold out from under them and they left the church.

I was at his farewell service (as was most of the former congregation... they wanted to make sure he was really going). He talked about all of his ACCOMPLISHMENTS, all of his successful PROJECTS. The only things he had to say about people were praising the 12 or so people that didn't leave, extolling their virtues while simultaneously taking indirect "pot shots" at everyone else.

The church to this day has not bounced back. Many of the old faithful are ministering for the Kingdom in other congregations.

The dangerous part of this is... the Pastor in quesion is actually incapable of coming to understand that ANYTHING that he did was wrong. He is incapable of seeing that he has a problem and that he damages people. To them, whatever they do is the right course of action. That's narcissism for you.

I can't say whether or not you're in a narcissistic situation. But if you are, short of a maracle there is no cure.

[cmchamp]

A similar discussion came up in another forum I participate in with regard to inappropriate use of His resources and poor stewardship.
Praying for His insight, His wisdom and His words when His time is appropriate.
God's Blessings.

[WORDpictures]

Originally Posted by in prayer

I use this term very loosely, but I have "butted" heads with leadership just a handful of times. I am always very respectful and make it known that I respect them and honor them. In these instances I have seen personality and character traits that I am not crazy about.

People don't change, and the traits you've described will likely become more prominent as you continue working with these individuals. Are these qualities that will allow you to continue working with leadership in a respectful way long-term? Don't let yourself be put into a position to become bitter in your ministry.

Originally Posted by in prayer

I am of the opinion that I don't want to look for another job/ministry without first consulting my current Pastor. I don't know if God could bless that endeavor if it were in a sense sneaking around behind where I currently minister. I am also of the opinion that once I make it known that I am looking for another church to minister in, I may have my employment ended.

Realize the attitudes of leadership are highly unlikely to change with time if you postpone this discussion. But since you would be pushing the point, albeit with good intentions, there sounds like a very good chance you will be requested to leave for not being on the same page as leadership or that attitudes will deteriorate. There's the remote possibility that an open discussion could bring about a sensitivity for your concerns. Some people highly regard that type of open sincerity. Just be ready to graciously accept the outcome.

Originally Posted by in prayer

At separate times my wife and I both had the same idea of trying to initiate an informal meeting with a staff member at the church with the open position, hoping this would allow us to find out if this is the kind of church we would like to work for, and if they thought we might be the right candidate for their open position.

Trust these "inspirations." But perhaps, not merely for the sake of finding another job. Sounds like there's concern for your family's spiritual well-being.

I've been painfully dealing with concern whether I should find another place to serve as well, yet from a volunteer's perspective. I believe in faithfully sticking with one's commitments, so I chose to push my concerns by speaking directly with leaders. God has repeatedly made it evident that I should have gotten out of there much sooner than I did. I realize I had stayed with expectations that God would honor my prayers for resolution as well as the time & effort I had invested there... over my prayers for His "best" direction for me. Coincidentally, my husband had long been telling me to leave there as well.

For the sake of a positive ending... I had been checking into options to volunteer elsewhere, but found nothing appropriate to my skill sets. Within days and only "after" the infamous talk with leadership, God opened a new appealing door that hadn't even existed before this.

Praying for discernment.

[[Director] Joseph B]

Having been through a similar (almost identical) situation, I can say that you need to spend time in prayer, try not to blame yourself (you will - you'll spend time wondering what you could have done different) and get on with your life and ministry in a place that will be a better fit.
I now find myself in a thriving church, having left one with a full time pastor, full time youth pastor, secretary, etc. That church now has a part time pastor, part time secretary and is slowly rebuilding itself (they can turn things around if attitudes change).
There is hope and a light at the end of the tunnel.

[Pastor Ryan]

It sounds like a very difficult position to be in.

I know you want to honor your pastor and of course God, continue in prayer.

Seek God's direction in all decisions you make with concerns to your current situation.

Ultimately, I think if you are doing what God has called you to, and you leave the current church or stay you will be honoring God by serving him.

[tedanderson]

I am of the opinion that I don't want to look for another job/ministry without first consulting my current Pastor. I don't know if God could bless that endeavor if it were in a sense sneaking around behind where I currently minister. I am also of the opinion that once I make it known that I am looking for another church to minister in, I may have my employment ended. At separate times my wife and I both had the same idea of trying to initiate an informal meeting with a staff member at the church with the open position, hoping this would allow us to find out if this is the kind of church we would like to work for, and if they thought we might be the right candidate for their open position. Please share you thoughts and opinions on this matter.

IMHO I think that your two obligations to your Pastor is to share your specific concerns regarding what's going on in the ministry and what can be done to resolve them. And if you cannot come to a resolution and/or you cannot get enough satisfaction out of the meeting to make staying with your church a worthwhile decision, then you are also obligated to tell him that you are moving on to pursue other ministerial endeavors and you have chosen to pursue other career opportunities.

Depending on your relationship with your pastor, it would be courteous to tell him that you are looking elsewhere for a job but if you feel that your relationship is more businesslike than friendly to the point where he might fire you on the spot, then keep your business strategy hat on and don't make your intentions known until you are ready to execute them. But when and if you decide to leave, it is important that you leave in the correct manner and clearly state your next move.

How do I handle what I am going through at my current church? Do I wait it out, do I pray it out? I don't know that there is much more I can do to talk it out.

There are a few things to consider-

#1. Don't take anything personally.

I've seen situations where people leave their church as the result of what I call being too far on the other side of the fence. There is a side that the congregation sees and the general public sees and then there is the ugly side that most people don't see and wouldn't understand if they saw it. Unfortunately some people fall in love with their church and the people who run it. And over time they develop certain perceptions that cause them to think that their leaders are perfect and can never do anything wrong. Then once they are exposed to the ugly side of ministry, it is easy to become devastated if their focus is not in the right place.

#2. Consider whether or not you are being fed at your church and what the spiritual food is worth to you.

It's important to serve but even more important to be served if serving comes at the expense of your spiritual growth. If you are benefiting greatly from sitting down and receiving the teachings of your ministry then perhaps leaving the church as a result of bumping heads with leaders is a bad idea. Maybe you would be better off finding another area of ministry that does not take you out of the service as often. But you should never leave a good church with a good pastor just because you are having troubles or issues with some of the people in it. Don't let the foolishness of other people interrupt your blessings and everything that God has for you.

#3. Remember why you are there in the first place.

Your membership in a church is not about the position, the title, task, but it is about your relationship and purpose in God. If this is where God put you, then you cannot allow the people to dictate otherwise. In our secular jobs, we all have had situations were we have been forced to work with people that we didn't like or to work in situations that were unpleasant but we dealt with it so that we could get a paycheck. We should have the same level of due diligence when it comes to working with people in ministry.

I have been in prayer for some time that God would show me where to go or what to do. I am not much for signs as they can be interpreted in a number of ways, however this particular ministry position was posted on my birthday, and is in the same relative area that we currently are.

Neither am I but one thing that I can tell you is that dates and times are nothing more than indicators for reference. e.g. Our calendar system begins roughly around the birth of Christ but prior do that, I doubt that anyone had a calendar that said "9 B.C." because they've been counting down since the caveman days.

Our church is becoming to growth driven and not paying enough attention to the shrinking congregation we currently have.

Not to be snippy about it but isn't that how you should resolve a problem with a shrinking congregation? Also I figure that having your needs met is more important than loyalty to a particular church body. You cannot please everyone and a good pastor would rather see someone in a place where they are getting their spiritual needs met than to convince them to stay at the expense of their spiritual development.

I have been working at our church for sometime now and have increasingly grown frustrated and unhappy with a number of things. Our leadership is very efficient at times and has great visions which I certainly can appreciate. However, I have found some biblical lines becoming blurred and a cut throat attitude emerging in some respects. In the last year it has grown worse, money has been spent in ways that has been hard for me to stomach, volunteers time, energy, and emotions have been used in ways I disagree with, and I feel that even I have been used in a manner that I don't think is right.

I've been there before and I know exactly what you are going through. But at the end of the day, you have to accept the fact that all of this falls on the Pastor's shoulders. Not yours. It's good that you care about your ministry and what you do enough to be concerned about these issues and I can tell that your heart is right based on what I am reading, however, you should also know that you aren't the only one who sees this. Cast your cares on the Lord, let him guide you, handle the things you can, don't concern yourself with the things that you can't and let this season run it's course.

This is a very trying time for our family right now. We went through a similar ministry change a few years back, much uglier than this one, but ministry changes are not always the easiest thing to go through. God did make our transition a good one, we still believe God did send us to this church, we just are trying to find out if it is time for a new season in our ministry. Please share any advice or encouragement that you might have.

I once heard a pastor say that no church is a perfect church. And if you find one that's perfect, don't join it because you will ruin it. But lastly I would advise against using situations of adversity as an indication of it being the end of a season. The actions and situations of others do not dictate God's timing. The start and end of a season can happen in the best and worst of times. We have an associate pastor in our church who originally started his own church. He built it from the ground up, he had over 5000 members, the ministry was financially well off and the ministry was making progress. Then once day he heard from God and was told that it was his time to move on. It would have STILL been his time to move on regardless of whether the ministry was succeeding or failing. The only difference is in what he would not have accomplished had he not obeyed God.

[in prayer]

I am not being Fed in our church.

I do enjoy my ministry, but I do not get to enjoy service.

Not because services are bad or because I don't like the Pastor or anything like that, I am simply too busy during all services to actually sit down and receive it.

I am sensing it might be a time to change because of a number of reasons.

Not Being Fed spiritually:
I brought this to the attention of the Pastor, and prayed about it and decided since they knew about the situation, and they said they would resolve it, I would give them time to do so. Not one effort has been made in the direction that would alleviate stress, work load, service responsibilities from me, and nothing has been done to see that I am able to be fed spiritually.

I do have a relationship that is more business like with our Pastor. And on another level I feel like I am being treated like a 2nd class staff member.

I am not jealous, but I do notice that I am not treated or spoken to in the same manner as the rest of the staff. It is just little things I have have noticed over time seem to be more prevalent in my eyes now that I am noticing some of the bigger things.

With regards to the "growth driven" comments. I do not have any problems with trying to help your church grow, but I think it is feeble if it causes the current flock to be ignored. Our current congregation is not being tended to as they once were because our church has become too focused on growing, and a bigger number, than focusing on the well being of our current congregants, and because of that we are losing several.

Sorry I am sure some of this sounds like rambling, it is just difficult to put it all into words.

[[Admin] osborn4]

If you and your spouse are in agreement with this, then it may be time to go.

Any chance you could attend services at the other church or some other church when you don't have to run things at your church? I find that if I am "on" for too many services, I need to get away to a different church to just worship w/o worrying about the tech aspects of the service.

If your relationship with your pastor is more "business-like" then I don't know why you would tell him that you are considering looking for another job. Just make sure and give him proper 2-4 week notice before you leave. If he were a spiritual mentor to you, then I might run it buy him before pursuing.

Just my $.02US.

[in prayer]

Here's the deal, I don't get services off, in the last 2 years I have sat in service without duties 3 times...not for a full 3 days, but literally 3 services.

If I did want to go look at another church and how their services are, I would literally have to take a vacation day.

And that is not all that easy as I don't get a great deal of vacation time, and I had days at the end of this year I wasn't able to use because of how busy we are here.

[[Admin] osborn4]

How about a mid week service? Saturday night? Sunday night? Midnight Mass? Sunrise Service? Just trying to think of alternative times.

We have church only on Saturday mornings, so I have a variety of choices to go to on a Saturday night or Sunday morning.

[tedanderson]

The bible says in Timothy 5:18 "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain". In biblical times oxen were used to operate the milling stones as the milled grain fell on the floor. The oxen would eat this grain periodically as walked in the circular path around the stone. Somewhere along the line an efficiency expert (of that time) figured out that you could yield more grain in a day if you put a muzzle over their heads because the oxen would keep on working regardless of whether or not you fed them. But eventually an ox would collapse and die from starvation thus saving a few bushels of grain at the expense of an animal that costs considerably more.

One thing that you have to understand from their perspective is that they don't know how much they are using and abusing you if you continue to allow them to do it. In our type of work we are usually the first to arrive, and the last to leave clocking more hours than almost everyone else. When I schedule time off I take it. If anyone has anything to say about it, I make it clear that I made plenty of advance notice giving all those who are affected plenty of time to prepare. If I told you in April that I am going on vacation in December and you come to me in November with a request, I cannot fulfill it. Your request might be important but my life, family, and sanity is more important. So what works better for you scheduling wise? Having me out for a couple of weeks or me being gone indefinately because I am in a mental institution after suffering a nervous breakdown?

How hard is it to formally resign your position and go back to being regular old Plain Joe Church Member? I would try that first. Then if you catch any backlash directly from your pastor as a result of resigning your duties, then I think that it would be time to examine other options.

If you are given vacation time, take it. They can't deny it without compensating you accordingly. And if they don't pay you for unused vacation time, put in for it and take it regardless of what's going on.

Stand up for what's right, be respectful, and don't show any visible signs of anger or animosity. Then if they kick you out, that's a whole different issue. But if you just walk away wounded with unresolved issues, it will be much harder to put this behind you.