Church size - when to pay

[Esoteric]

Oh yeah, a church should wrestle with every expenditure it makes. Our board of directors is currently praying/debating over the issue of how many Pastors we have. Some of us feel there are too many Pastors on staff (we have currently 15 Pastors/Worship Leaders/Ministry Leaders paid on salary for a church with 2 campuses and about 2500 active members), and we are currently wrestling with the issue.

Others felt that our $2.5 million capital campaign for our new campus came too soon on the back of our last $3 million capital campaign for our first campus (3 years ago September).

The best "bang for the buck" (if you mean converts per dollar, which I am not sure can be accurately measured anyway) can often be oversees. However, some churches also need to wrestle with that, as they forget that the commission begins in Judea (I used to attend a church with 30 active members who supported 15 missionaries oversees, but never reached out to their own community).

Any money the church spends should always be spent prayerfully.

[samchuck]

Just a thought...

I am the tech guy at my church,and the webmaster,the sound guy,the light guy,the camera man,the projection person all around computer repairman and have never received a dime for anything that I do. Not to mention I am a handyman in my normal job and regularly do repairs around the church.

I do have one adult volunteer (part-time) and some of the kids help sometimes (ages 9-12)

Church membership is a little over 100.

[wogster]

Originally Posted by RJSmith

I want to take some suggestions to our music minister (who is over the media team) and am trying to do a little research to make sure what I'm suggesting is appropriate.

My main question is when to begin paying individuals who run and/or work in the sound booth. I'm making an assumption that church size and budget typically play a large part in when the church may begin to pay some of these positions. I guess I'm just looking for some generalities and guidelines, especially for churches in the 2000-5000 range for regular attendees.

A secondary question is how special services are generally handled in other churches. Our church typically does a "special" for most major holidays (including Christmas, Easter, Independence Day, etc.) which requires the entire media team to be at the church every week night and some time on the weekends for at least a week (usually 2-3 weeks or more at Christmas) in preparation of the presentation. I personally feel that this is asking a lot of unpaid volunteers, especially around the Christmas season, to forgo time with their families around every major holiday (there is no rotation for these as all media team members are needed for each presentation).

While there are those who want to serve, it is a large commitment to automatically be expected for weeks at time around holidays and my primary concern right now is for some people who have committed to help on a rotation but are finding the holiday schedule to be overwhelming. I'd like to know how others handle this in order to come up with some solutions to share with our music pastor.

There are issues though with paid staff, there are two forms, first is where you pay whoever is doing it, an honourarium, or you have a part-time or full-time staff member who manages a team of volunteers.

In the case of an honourarium, the individual still needs a "real" job to pay the bills, unless they are working every day, in which case they might take personal days at their real job in order to get this work.

The problem with a staff person, is that usually when a big production comes along the staff person gets all the accolades, and the volunteers get all the work (I've been there as a volunteer).

One church I was on the sound team for, if there was extra stuff, like a wedding, or something that the auditorium was rented for, then the sound guy who "worked" that day, was paid, but that was between the sound guy and the people using the church. I did it for a wedding, and got $50....

[liko81]

Originally Posted by wogster

There are issues though with paid staff, there are two forms, first is where you pay whoever is doing it, an honourarium, or you have a part-time or full-time staff member who manages a team of volunteers.

In the case of an honourarium, the individual still needs a "real" job to pay the bills, unless they are working every day, in which case they might take personal days at their real job in order to get this work.

The problem with a staff person, is that usually when a big production comes along the staff person gets all the accolades, and the volunteers get all the work (I've been there as a volunteer).

One church I was on the sound team for, if there was extra stuff, like a wedding, or something that the auditorium was rented for, then the sound guy who "worked" that day, was paid, but that was between the sound guy and the people using the church. I did it for a wedding, and got $50....

Well, but there are issues with volunteers as well. You're generally limited to the congregation when looking for people to run sound. There's also little incentive, other than personal drive, for the sound techs to learn how to do it right. I came in to a new church recently, which had a really nice (for the size of church) Mackie Onyx board that had been set up by volunteer amateurs. The recording feed was taken off of the outputs that are supposed to feed an engineer's wedge, meaning nobody could PFL/AFL or even adjust the headphones volume without affecting the recording. Luckily, technical problems like this are easy to fix (the recording feed went onto the matrix, and a zone fill that was using one matrix channel was moved to the mono output), but you're trusting your sound guys to know sound systems, and that usually includes at least one guy who knows how to hook everything up to get a system you can manage.

At my previous church, the volunteer sound man was retired from 50 years in the broadcast industry, and brought all his habits to live sound, from having the headphones on all the time to chasing the (home-built and miscalibrated) needle to "balancing" the board by setting the initial mix with all faders at unity (not sure if that's a broadcast-based habit but IMO it's a bad one). Oh, yeah, and 50 years running PAs will do a number on your hearing; he was so deaf he couldn't hear feedback above about 10kHz. The congregation, including myself, really liked and respected him, but his knowledge about the technology was so out of date, and he was so stubborn about sticking to what he knew, that the only way we could upgrade from a tape deck to a CD recorder for recording and distributing the service was to take him to a Wal-Mart's electronics aisle and ask him to find a cassette player that we could buy to give to shut-ins to listen to the recordings. He still doesn't like digital.

When you pay your sound guys, you have at least some ability to be picky about the skill level of those you pay. Even if it's an honorarium, you're paying a guy who knows sound (or at least your system) to show up Sunday mornings, thus avoiding situations where the regular volunteer sound guy doesn't show, and you have to plop whoever you have in the chair and give them a 30-second crash course in fader pushing.

To the OP (since this is a necropost anyway) - The answer is simple: you should consider paying your sound guys/media team when you feel that's the level of commitment you need to make in order to get reliable, quality sound/media production. A 20-member church out in the sticks with an 8-channel mixer feeding a home stereo may need to pay their sound person if that's the incentive needed to get somebody at the "desk" who knows what they're doing. Conversely, a 10,000-member megachurch might have enough skilled volunteers to have a monthly rotation of the entire media team, or even a waiting list, without paying anybody a dime (maybe there's a media team head who's on paid staff and does organizational tasks).

[wogster]

Originally Posted by liko81

Well, but there are issues with volunteers as well. You're generally limited to the congregation when looking for people to run sound. There's also little incentive, other than personal drive, for the sound techs to learn how to do it right. I came in to a new church recently, which had a really nice (for the size of church) Mackie Onyx board that had been set up by volunteer amateurs. The recording feed was taken off of the outputs that are supposed to feed an engineer's wedge, meaning nobody could PFL/AFL or even adjust the headphones volume without affecting the recording. Luckily, technical problems like this are easy to fix (the recording feed went onto the matrix, and a zone fill that was using one matrix channel was moved to the mono output), but you're trusting your sound guys to know sound systems, and that usually includes at least one guy who knows how to hook everything up to get a system you can manage.

At my previous church, the volunteer sound man was retired from 50 years in the broadcast industry, and brought all his habits to live sound, from having the headphones on all the time to chasing the (home-built and miscalibrated) needle to "balancing" the board by setting the initial mix with all faders at unity (not sure if that's a broadcast-based habit but IMO it's a bad one). Oh, yeah, and 50 years running PAs will do a number on your hearing; he was so deaf he couldn't hear feedback above about 10kHz. The congregation, including myself, really liked and respected him, but his knowledge about the technology was so out of date, and he was so stubborn about sticking to what he knew, that the only way we could upgrade from a tape deck to a CD recorder for recording and distributing the service was to take him to a Wal-Mart's electronics aisle and ask him to find a cassette player that we could buy to give to shut-ins to listen to the recordings. He still doesn't like digital.

When you pay your sound guys, you have at least some ability to be picky about the skill level of those you pay. Even if it's an honorarium, you're paying a guy who knows sound (or at least your system) to show up Sunday mornings, thus avoiding situations where the regular volunteer sound guy doesn't show, and you have to plop whoever you have in the chair and give them a 30-second crash course in fader pushing.

To the OP (since this is a necropost anyway) - The answer is simple: you should consider paying your sound guys/media team when you feel that's the level of commitment you need to make in order to get reliable, quality sound/media production. A 20-member church out in the sticks with an 8-channel mixer feeding a home stereo may need to pay their sound person if that's the incentive needed to get somebody at the "desk" who knows what they're doing. Conversely, a 10,000-member megachurch might have enough skilled volunteers to have a monthly rotation of the entire media team, or even a waiting list, without paying anybody a dime (maybe there's a media team head who's on paid staff and does organizational tasks).

Generally operating the board, when the system is set up properly, is simple enough, you follow a few basic rules, using your ears and the grey matter between them. It's hard only when it hasn't been configured properly. Hiring a professional tech might then be overkill, when a contract tech can be brought in for a week to get it all configured properly. In some ways I think signal processors should have a key lock on them, labelled panel controls, with enable, disable as the key positions, then you can get it configured, turn the key to disable the controls so people who should know better can't monkey with it.

[SterlingAug]

Originally Posted by wogster

In some ways I think signal processors should have a key lock on them, labelled panel controls, with enable, disable as the key positions, then you can get it configured, turn the key to disable the controls so people who should know better can't monkey with it.

^^ I wish the sound boards did have key locks also. Our sound tech is constantly making adjustments on every song so it confuses the musicians and affects the quality of our recorded videos. The one week he was out, I got to set up the equipment my myself then I ran the board, the camera, the capture PC, and the lighting controller by myself during the service (I had someone control the PC with the background slides that we run using Easy Worship).

Everyone commented how clean and LOUD that service was and the musicians said it was the easiest service to play and sing along since the controls never changed from start to finish.

[Esoteric]

Ummmmm.... How could people mix with the console locked out? I can see locking out signal processing and room EQ. But you can't mix properly with a locked out console.

And I consider myself VERY talented, but I could not run a camera and a sound console at the same time and achieve any kind of quality. Maybe sound and lights if lights are just some PARcans that I can push up a fader and then then forget about it. But mixing sound requires 100% of your attention all the time.

[wogster]

Originally Posted by SterlingAug

^^ I wish the sound boards did have key locks also. Our sound tech is constantly making adjustments on every song so it confuses the musicians and affects the quality of our recorded videos. The one week he was out, I got to set up the equipment my myself then I ran the board, the camera, the capture PC, and the lighting controller by myself during the service (I had someone control the PC with the background slides that we run using Easy Worship).

Everyone commented how clean and LOUD that service was and the musicians said it was the easiest service to play and sing along since the controls never changed from start to finish.

I don't know about locking out the console, but a lot of sound guys don't realise that knobs are for sound checks, sliders are for live performance and that sliders should be moved fractions of mm at a time, not whole inches. I find it hard enough to run the board and advance the slides, I'm with Mike, I can't see juggling that many hats at once, without dropping at least one....

[SterlingAug]

For lights we have a programmable Elation Scene Setter 24 that I have 3 scenes pre programmed in. One is "pre service", second is "full band", and third is "sermon". Each scene is controlled by 1 slider, slide #1 down the slide #2 up and the scene changes instantly.

We only use 1 HD video camera during the service. Panning and zooming as we decide during the songs and the sermon to try to follow the action.

The sound board gets sliders and knobs tweaked constantly during the practice and the service. Nothing ever stays set for long. The musicians never know how loud their instruments and pics will be from one minute to the next or will they be muted.

Even with all that, the end result is still better now than it was last year with all of the changes we made by adding the light gel filters and repositioning the lights for more even balance, configuring the matrix groups for the video recording instead of all channels getting assigned to the L/R mains, recording direct to the PC by eliminating the tapes, recording the entire service instead of manually starting and stopping the recording to cut out the music because they didn't want to pay for a recording license.

We would be happy to hear any and all critiques of our videos:

http://FindPurposeAtFaith.org (click on the weekly sermon videos link in the right menu).

[Esoteric]

Hey man, no offense meant. If you can do that you are just a much better technician than I am. When I mix sound, it is all I can do

[wogster]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Hey man, no offense meant. If you can do that you are just a much better technician than I am.

+18,446,744,073,709,551,616

[tallorderaudio]

I've scanned all posts on this topic so far, and haven't seen many that explore the theological reasons or ramifications of volunteer or paid tech team members, so this is what I want to poke at.

About me: I am a FT employee at a large church (5,000+) and have been managing the tech volunteers for over a year now. I have been blessed to make a career out of live audio and system integration for the past 10 years.

I think there is a myth in the American church today that says a church NEEDS to have high production value for good ministry. I volunteer at a different church from which I work who does some things absolutely wrong on the tech side of things, and yet does incredible things for Gods kingdom. They have grown from 100 members 4 years ago, to over 1,500 across 3 campuses currently. Another church that stands in the face of this myth is Redeemer Presbyterian in NYC. Conversely, many well recognized churches have powerful ministries and very advanced production value too. Their productions SUPPORT their ministries; they don't define them. This is key. At the end of the day, it is a lot easier to buy production than it is to buy ministry. I just don't like it when the two get confused with each other.

There is another myth that I would like to address, and that is paying people prevents burnout. If a church relies heavily on production staff for their "ministry" model, then chances are they are burning those people out too. In other words, paid production members are not allowed to participate in the things which make the church great because they are constantly working to support them. This is only sustainable for a year or two, and then the staff person has enough of looking in from the outside at all the great things that happen there and he/she moves on. No problem, right? Just hire someone else and keep on truckin'... But what if you have 10 ministries like this and you burn out several people a year? (And usually at the worst times!) NOW, this is a problem. If these ministries had volunteers in rotation to pick up the needs, the outcome will be much different. First, burnout is less likely. Second, when a person moves on, there are others in the rotation to pick up the slack. This is the practical reason why volunteerism makes more sense to me.

Finally, there is the issue of stewardship and worship. A "pay everyone" model actually prevents people from contributing to the church in their gifts and talents, and it costs the church tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars annually; how many churches could be built or missionaries supported with these funds?! Also, it is nearly impossible to worship in a position if you are getting paid to be there. So, not only is he church preventing members from being good stewards, but they are actively preventing worship in others by paying them to be there. It is for these reasons that I feel strongly about volunteerism in the church.

In the end, I think a "both-and" model works the best. Pay a qualified person or persons to lead, teach, and organize a strong base of volunteers. Let the church serve itself. Extremes on both sides don't work we'll, IMO.

Obviously, exceptions are out there and I have painted with a broad brush. But like I said at the beginning, I didn't see anyone else explore these areas, so I figured I would. I hope I have brought something positive to the conversation...