Past Church... Should I Bill?

[NCMediaPro]

After eleven years of sound and three years of Media Director (sound/production/media) it was in my best interest to move to a larger church and have no responsibility's. After leaving my parents church where I held positions with a bitter taste, a new Pastor was hired and he tried to bring me back But anyways, I've tried to help with the occasional problem that arises. However, it's got to the point now that I have considered charging for my "services."

Should I - How Much

or No?

Thanks,
Ethan

[tedanderson]

Yes. Start out charging between $50 to $65 an hour. Build p a rapport where they are respectful of your services and what it costs to bring you in. Also show them that you are dependable and that you operate with integrity. And then over time you will see opportunities to give them price breaks or handle minor service calls for no charge.

I made a very costly mistake with a very easy low-maintenance church client that I refused to charge after a while. They had plenty of money in the budget and never had a problem with paying me. But once I got things running like a well-oiled machine, in my mind I felt like I was taking candy from a baby and I thought I would be doing them a better service by not billing he church for my services.

But what ended up happening is that my decision devalued my craft. I was now giving away something that I used to charge $100 a week to do and that made it appear as if I was taking advantage of situation in the first place.

I don't know exactly why I felt led to share that with you or if this even applies to your situation but take it for whatever it is worth to you and hopefully this has been helpful.

[theatre4jc]

$50-$65 a hour is very steep to just start charging if you have been coming in often. Not knowing you abilities/talent/quality of work, but if it's your parents church and you don't charge any other facilities I would say yes, but a lower rate. If you do have a contractors fee for other churches then I would explain to this particular church that you normally charge $X amount and that you cannot justify charging others but not them.

So I say yes charge but maybe start low and work the price up over time. Especially if it is your first client, but be sure to have a good justification for upping rates like gaining a certification or something.

Personally I don't charge my parents church and I do not have a contractors rate for consults. I charge on a job by job basis and if it is under 3 hours work or advising on small things then I don't bother for most churches. I consider it part of my tithe. But if it's a large consult or a multi day project I will charge either a day rate or hourly rate, but most of those gigs come through my local production house that I do contract work through.

[cmchamp]

Have you spoken with the pastor regarding your thoughts and that he/church may be taking advantage of a family member?

Because I also have a singing/teaching ministry, on first consult with a church client, I let them know that they have two options.
1: $90/hour on site plus mileage, actual expenses and $45/hour travel time.
2: Book Throne Together Ministries for a program at their church for a free will offering.

Welcome aboard, and please don't fear asking questions or being open and honest about your feelings/viewpoints.

[[Director] Joseph B]

If you haven't been charging them it might be appropriate to let them know that what you are doing is not normally done free (or cheap). Due to your past history you've been letting them go but since it's now becoming a regular event you're going to have to start charging them. Bill them your normal rate and discount it if you feel lead.
It always amazes me how people (especially those who get paid for doing ministry) think others should work for free.
As long as you are fair no one should have a problem.

[shayward]

I think it depends on primarily what God lays on your heart. We can give you a tonne of advice (and good advice at that). Ultimately you have to follow God in your situation.

Things to consider, of course, are whether or not the church can afford it, how much they can afford, and how often you're being called.

There have been some good points about your work being seen as having value. I've seen free concerts with fantastic groups do worse for attendance than less-excellent concerts that charged $15 a ticket. As much as we all love free stuff, there seems to be something about buying a ticket.

Second, if they are paying you then they will maybe be more apt to try and get some of their current people mentored and functioning to save them money.

I too think $65 is an awful lot, but then depending on the church and depending on you. We had a consultant come in for $100/hr and we were happy to pay it... for 5 hours. And we absolutely got our $500 worth.

If you do decide to start charging, setup a base rate and let them know that this is what you would normally charge. And so if you're going to have an on-going relationship you would be happy to take them on as a client.

[rkresge]

Some random thoughts on this thread...

There have been a couple of comments about proposed hourly rates being too high. IMHO that is not the case. Try hiring *any* professional today and see what you pay. If anything, $50-$65/hour plus expenses may well be much too low. I do not believe we should undervalue ourselves.

I do computer networking as a profession and have no qualms about charging anywhere from $100 to $150/hour for my work, depending on the skill/knowledge levels involved. Nor do most customers have any issues with that rate after they check around.

One recommendation is to find out what the going rate is for professional sound/lighting services in your market, and price yourself in relation to that.

Having said that, I think it's also quite reasonable to charge a low "doing you a favor" or "introductory" rate as long as everyone involved knows that's what it is, and that this rate is not what may be charged for future work.

Then there's my co-worker who does a lot of computer repair work on the side and charges on $25/hour. Not only that but he often charges for much less work and time than he puts into jobs. I've suggested several times that this is not a good way to work, but he's still doing it. Doesn't affect my business, so I don't care. However, two things happen. First, his customers undervalue his work because it's so cheap. Second, he does far more work than he has time for - if he raised his rate he could take in just as much money and work a lot less.

A church for which I do some free work recently learned the hard way about the true cost of professional services. They had a virus infection that I was not going to be able to work on for at least 2 weeks, and it HAD to be cleaned up right away. Long story. I wound up helping them find an experienced pro who got there within a couple of hours. Cost them nearly $1000, but it was worth it. They're not nearly as quick as they used to be to complain when it takes me a while to get to things.

Roger

[MediaGuy]

I will be the dissenter on this thread.

Due to your past history of work, you should continue to occasionally service the church for free. God doesn't care how much you get paid; your service to Him (through servicing the church) is not up for debate or price wrangling. Just do it, and be so thankful that He has given you the opportunity, knowledge and skill to do it. After all, it's for His glory, not yours.

...if you feel so inclined to continue to help them. I might not be so inclined, if my positions were held in bitter taste.

IF you believe God is leading you to make your living doing this, and you intend on making a business deal out of it, then you should probably approach the church saying that you've decided to go into business and that the current arrangement won't work, sorry. That then puts the decision on them, to decide to maintain your services or not. THEN you can begin to talk money.

The original post sounds like you either feel taken advantage of, or you're trying to get them to stop asking you for help. Either way, the basis for your decision is not the right basis when you're considering anything in ministry. Make sure you're doing things how God wants you to... then, you can't go wrong.

[wmmsaved]

We're either performing a ministry for God or we're performing a service for a fee. I don't believe one activity can be both. I hope Ethan prayerfully decided which to pursue and that he did it, not out of hard feelings, but for the right reasons.

There is nothing wrong with making a living but I think there is a lot wrong with charging God (via His church) for something and calling it ministry.

I happen to have certain technical abilities. I have installed large sound systems for a price. That was a job. I have also gone to small churches to make repairs on existing systems and charged them nothing. That was a ministry. I believe that, if our heart is in what we do and we're up front about it, God blesses in both types of situations.

[Esoteric]

I agree and disagree to a point wmm. I think offering a form of discount can be a form of ministry. Something like this.......

I do a lot of work. Some for pay, some for free, some for discount.

Of course corporate and entertainment clients always pay the full fee. Some stuff I do for free because it is ministry (I do all the stage design at my home church for free, and I offer free design consulting to any church that asks). I also do free graphic design and background work for pretty much anyone who asks. But there is a caveat on free work. It gets pushed to the bottom of the priority list (and those who take advantage of my free services know this in advance). I do not do technical or installation work for free ever. So for those getting free services if I have a paying gig on the day that they need something done, then I am sorry I will try and get to it, but there are no promises. For example I had a stage setup at my church on the day of rehearsal for a rock show I was doing lighting for. I gave my church the design and explicit instructions on how to execute it, but other than that they were on their own. I offered to reschedule to another day and I also offered to free up my calendar for the right price (to give them the option). They chose to reschedule.

Then there are the discounts. First of all I give all churches discounts over my secular clients. It may not be a "ministry" but as a believer it is something I feel called to do. I used to often do front end work (design, specification, etc) for free because those churches would inevitably buy from me. Of course this has become sticky when someone has taken my specs or designs and bid them out without paying for them (I used to think a handshake with a Pastor meant that we had a deal). So I am praying and searching my heart now if I should continue to do this work for free, or if I should always require a contract that I will waive the design fee if the equipment is bought from me (which is how I am operating at the moment). The other thing I am currently praying about is working with churches that have no intent to ever buy anything, they just bid out 20 projects a year just to "see what it would cost". I mean I don't mind throwing numbers out there, but when you put together detailed bids with multiple equipment levels and price ranges and are told afterwards that "Oh, okay well we are looking at something like this at some point maybe," it tends to not be a good situation. It shows that they have little respect for your time. Which I think is very easy for them for those of us in the media industry (one Pastor told me that I "play all day for a living anyway, so what is the big deal") as we often enjoy our work and it seems "fun" and "frivolous" to those without knowledge of what is actually involved.

I guess my point is that we work in a sticky world. If you offer free services with no catch then churches will take advantage of you and wear you out. I guess that is why all my free work comes with the caveat that it is the bottom of the priority list and the first thing to get bumped if something has to go. Then if the client decides they want to pay instead and have the work moved up the priority list, that is fine.

Just my thoughts.

Mike

PS Do not read this that I do not make God a priority. I certainly do. But who here if working for a large corporation doing IT work would put down a project mid stream and run to their church right away to reboot a crashed computer?

[Gracetech]

I completely disagree. Are pastors hired guns? Are they not providing ministry? Any one that moves ministry along from the building builders to the custodians to the little ole' lady stuffing envelopes have their part in ministry. Some don't even realize they are performing ministry.

I'm sure it can be argued but as long as you are doing your best and helping to facilitate ministry you are a minister. Ministry has nothing to do with being paid a fair wage for your time. If you want to work for free it is called volunteering. Volunteering is a form of sacrifice. It is good to sacrifice our time for our great God at least 10% weekly is a good starting point.

crt

[Esoteric]

Good job Grace. You expressed what it took me an essay to say in two sentences.

Mike