Rider Friendly (somewhat) Moving Heads

[Les]

Hello All,

Ok, I'll try to be quick, but I'll probably fail in that.

What I'm looking for are recommendations (or confirmation of my idea) for some good (decent) moving head intelligents that are fairly rider friendly and somewhat inexpensive. Yeah, I know, I'm asking for the world here, huh? Budget isn't known... it's not unlimited but we're not talking DJ grade stuff either. So, we're ok with looking at used lighting.

A little about the venue and acts. If the plan goes well (city meetings, permits, money, etc) we should open mid summer, certainly by end of the summer.

Stage will be 20'x28' (DxW). Height from Stage to steel is 14' (yes, I know it's low but we're working with an existed converted space), However, that's to roof trussing. We'll be adding steel (safely, professional steel company doing the work with permits, etc) and rigging to hang the lights from so we can cheat another 12"-18" of throw.

Venue will seat 500-700. Artist types would be local bands (no rider issues here) up through regional acts and maybe a handful of smaller nationals (Jeremy Camp, Fee, Christian Stanfill, etc).

What we're looking for is 4 washes and 4 spots to start off if and hopefully build on in the future.

Control will be Magic Q PC so we're covered there.

We'll have plenty of power and could probably arrange 220v, but prefer 120v.

I've been going through some riders and looking through several well known venue's house plots to get ideas and here is what I'm thinking might meet my criteria.

I'm thinking 4 HES Studio Color 250's and 4 HES Studio Spot 250's.

They still seem to be fairly rider friendly, readily available on the used market, and not too expensive. Plus, they seem to actually be good lights!

What do you lighting experts think? What about other options? Any particular units I should look at.

Last question, I'm thinking used is around $1000, too low, to high?

[Esoteric]

For HES Studio Color and Studio Spots $1000 each is a little on the low side. Also beware that the Spot 250 models just aren't that bright.

I assume you can service your own lights? Buying used that is a huge concern.

The Studio Colors are fine units. But I would switch to something like a Martin MAC250 if you want to go traditional manufacturers.

Elation makes a hell of a hybrid fixture in the Platinum 5R. Installed many of these units and I love them.

There are plenty of options I like out there, but you might run into trouble on riders unless there is an "or equivalent" clause in there.

If you can't do the Elations or others, then honestly I would go with MAC250s (in which case I think you are going to run into problems with your throws) or Strong Technobeams (for which you can purchase a 32 degree lens kit and still come in under $1k for a very handsome unit).

Mike

[Les]

Yeah, $1000 each was a typo, meant $1500 each.

Yes, we will service our own lights and we shouldn't have too many issues with that.

So, maybe instead of the 250's I could look at the 575 units. Those seem to be more abundant anyway.

But, I was looking at that Elation Platinum 5R, looks like a nice Spot unit.

What would you recommend for a wash to match?

On the Martin Mac 250's. Any ideas on avg used pricing?

Thanks for the suggestions mic. BTW, we'll probably need more Blizzard units by then too, so we'll be in touch offline.

[waynehoskins]

When one of the tours came through ten years ago, I think it was Left Behind, they brought Spot and Color 250s. Worked plenty well, but that's before the 575s were out so we didn't know the 250s were too dim.

The Mac 700s and 2Ks from the Will Graham tour sure were bright and pretty, but methinks they're out of our league, plus our throw's way too short.

[Gracetech]

I don't know if rider friendly is even pertinent in this case. Most artist that use intelligent lighting will bring their own. When you are talking about rider firendly stuff you are usually looking at brands like High End(Barco),Varilite, Robe, Coemar, and the likes.

I think if i where you i would look for new lights and spend the extra money. The amount of headache used intelli's is going to cause you will be worth the extra money. Who knows you may find a good deal with some lightly used lights. As far as lights i think at that ceiling height you can easily get away with 250's. Look for instruments with wide lenses to get the coverage without the distance. Also you will probably want units with CMY or RGB mixing so that you can cover most of the color gamut. As far as all the other features you are going to run into some highly subjective territory.

BTW you may want to give the Elation Platinum Spot 5R Pro a look. I recently checked these out for use in our soon to be finished building. They have more punch then your average 250 and they have a heck of alot of features for the price.

crt

[bladeaudio]

Does the Elation Platinum 5R do color mixing?

[mstone133]

No.

But it's a really nice fixture. I plan to use them in our new building.

[forty31]

We just installed 4 Platinum 5R's and they're great fixtures. They are about 30ft from our stage and 20' above the congregation and give us more than enough punch, i'd say they're pretty close to a 575w fixture. They don't do color mixing, which is a bummer, but for the price you can't complain.

[james tucker]

(double post, sorry)

[james tucker]

(from a Christian Venue lighting guy) (long post) (have fun)

I have worked for a 700 capacity Christian Venue for several years... we saw acts on the way up or on the way down, big stuff, little stuff... (Jeremy Camp, Jars of Clay, Switchfoot, and piles of local/regional acts)

In the 16 or so years the venue has been open, we have never and I mean never rented lights to fulfill riders outside of follow spots on occasion... we have rented PA gear, that is a must....

A good par can show works great 100% of the time and is super easy to maintain/show volunteers how to work. We have 36 500 watt pars on the back and 16 cans on the front....

Anytime we have brought a bigger group in, they would bring in their own movers/leds/console, etc.... The touring LD's that bring gear will either use our back lights and fronts, just fronts, or nothing at all....If they use our gear, we will either move the console closer to their console or run them a DMX line to another universe on their console...

>Jars of Clay used just our front light and brought their own movers
>Switchfoot used a spare universe on their console to use our movers/pars
>Family Force 5 brought a front and back truss, they didn't want any of our lights.
>random hardcore bands won't use anything, except of 500 watt quartz lights aimed at the crowd controlled by their merch guy...

We had Trackspots for 10 or so years and eventually traded them for some Martin 1220's (yes martin 1220's, they still rock the party). We are looking to replace our front (color) lights with LEDs (maybe 6 or so 3 watt RGB leds and keep a few pars for front "white" light)

Movers are nice and fun.... but they do cost a lot to keep them going - regular cleaning, new lamps, etc...

A venue your size I would look into getting the party going with 32 500 watt pars across the back and 4 spot fixtures (scanners or moving heads) I would seriously look into getting some Techno beams new or used... For front, get 8 RGB LEDs for color, and a few pars for some "white" light, and 4 movers.... Having movers on the front will give you more options if your venue decides to do dance parties or rentals...

I say par cans because it is rock and roll and a truss full of par cans looks great, its definitely not "greener" but it looks great.... Also, most of the time you are going to be running your shows on the fly, it is easier to "busk" with pars, than pre programming efx with movers or LED's...

If you are going to go with a led/mover system I highly suggest either getting a PC wing/touch screen combination for Chamsys or keeping your movers on one universe controlled by Chamsys PC and purchasing another fader board for your leds/par cans. Using just a computer for rock shows isn't that fun after a while.

YOU may not be at every show to make the party happen.... If it is a local show where you aren't expecting a lot of people, its better not to use your movers and rely on your LEDs/pars for the show instead of putting piles of hours on your movers for a 100 person local band night....

Technos are pretty cheap, parts are available, and people like to work on them.... You can't say the same thing about the Elation gear, they could discontinue the Platinum spots and all of a sudden you can't get parts for them... I have trackspots that are from 1991 and I can get replacement parts from Lightparts.com....

I don't ever put my movers on the stage as the venue is open 3 nights a week with 3-5 bands per night.... that is 15 bands worth of people running into your stuff....

One thing to remember for club lighting: the touring band manager/LD wants their talent lit first... When you have that accomplished through a base lighting system, everything else is icing on the cake....

a random band picture... par cans are still cool:

[Esoteric]

Some good stuff and some not so good stuff going on in this thread.

Starting at the top. The 5R's are great units. I have installed quite a few of them since they came out. Awesome unit that Martin tried to steal. They are brighter than a 575W unit. No color mixing yet, but you aren't going to get color mixing in your price range. I would use them with either some 575W wash units OR LED wash moving heads OR 4 more 5Rs used as washes (they are very good hybrid units). You will not have trouble getting parts any time soon. In fact right now Coemar parts are harder to get than Elation parts.

Keep in mind that as you mix different types of lights (LED, arc lamps, and traditional incandescents) the CRIs of these units are all very different so beware of interactions in their colors. Come very cool things can happen, but some very bad things can as well.

As far as riders not all acts that require movers travel with them. I know that RSJ required 8 moving head spots and they brought nothing with them. It was all backline. However her lighting guy (her brother) was really laid back about exactly which lights they were. But he had to have a Hog.

I would caution against traditional PAR rigs. The power requirements are just too great. Most places are not going to drop the coin that you would have to in order to put in a dimmer rack worth having (like even a small Sensor Rack). Plus, why stick yourself with static colors? LED PAR rigs work, just make sure you get good, bright units (wink wink).

Watch out for "scanner" level movers. They just don't have the subtlety that you will require from time to time and you will end up frustrated. In addition, front color is really a waste of time. I haven't hung colored front light in...... Years.

The Techno suggestion is great, but for the cost of 32 500W PARs ($12k-$14k) you can get a great LED PAR rig. Avoid scanners like the PLAGUE.

Again, front color is a waste. In a good design you don't need it. Turn them around. For lie music 90% of your lighting should be from the back.

Don't waste your time on PARs for front light. I always cringe when I see PAR front light (except MAYBE in studio applications and even then I prefer Fresnels). Get 3-4 Source4 Jrs (for such small throws) and be able to actually have control over your front light.

Movers on your front truss are also a waste of time. You can always use movers from the back truss to shine in the audience if you want a "dance party" look. Again, 90% or more of your lighting needs to be back light.

I agree lots of truss and lights look good for rock shows, but LED PARs give you so many more color options and they look so much cooler. And busking LED units is no harder than busking traditional PARs as long as you do your homework before hand.

Always get a touch screen for MagicQ, a wing is nice, but not really necessary. I would not go for a playback wing though, I would save and get a programming/playback wing.

I do agree on not using the movers for every show.

You might also think about a projection system. Talk about the best bang for your buck, THAT will give you the most power for your dollar. Especially if you are using an old warehouse and can just project on the back wall and don't have to worry about screens. That would be a cool look and worth your money in moving lights.

Give yourself as much flexibility as possible and plan out how you want things to look and work from there.

Mike

[Les]

Thanks for the suggestions thus far.

James, a big shout out to you for covering all the bases! In fact, I'd like to talk with you offline if you don't mind and pick your brain. That venue looks similar to what you're trying to do. I'd like to see some pics and talk in detail. Give me a PM and I'll shoot you my email and phone, if you have time.

I guess I left out a few of the details. Wayne and I have most of the bases covered for a great house system. So, the movers will be over and above the house plot.

That being said we're not 100% sure on the house plot (minus the movers) yet, but it will be one that Wayne or I (or some other techs in the area) could come in a busk a show on without using the movers and still put on a good light show.

Front lights will be a handful of Leko's and maybe a few Pars (I'd rather have Fresnel's, however to start we have a truckload (literally) of Pars on hand so they may have to make do)... Not my favorite for front light, but we'll at least have the Leko's.

Right now we can throw up a few dozen 500W Pars with little cost. We literally have around 120-150 500W Pars in the warehouse (don't ask... the guy who bought them got a really good deal) and I've got some older Leprecon LD-2400 dimmers. We'll even have an old 24 channel 2-scene preset board if we don't want to fire up Magic Q (personally, I like running conventionals with a manual light board). Power won't be a big issue.

But, we're thinking about adding a dozen or so LED Pars instead of the conventional Pars (Blizzard Rocklite or similar) just so we have ultimate flexibility in regards to color washes. Problem is just money and we may have to put money in other places to start.

Either way, we'll have a good standard light plot in place.

As far as a tour bringing in their own light rigs. We won't have a problem with that. In fact, we'll be adding rigging points for motors/trusses if they want to (insist) bring those in. However, with the low ceiling and video screens that we won't want to be obstructed we want to have a light rig that a touring LD would want to use.

Also, in my experience one-offs typically don't bring a light rig with them so we want to have a plot in place that would satisfy most LD's that would come in without having to rent. I've negotiated several dozen riders so getting them to use our house plot shouldn't be an issue (most of the time) as long as it's decent.

So, right now for movers it looks like my best bets are Elations 5R's or Martin Mac 250's. For the CMY mixing the Martins look nice and then instead of mixing brands for washes and spots it would all be one brand.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

BTW: A little more about the venue just for curious ones. The video system will actually be an HD system. We'll have 3 HD projectors in front and a seamless (or close to) video screen. Using the THTG we'll be able to have one big image or 3 separate images. We haven't chosen the switching equipment yet but we'll get to that later.