Installation Equip. Lists and diagrams

[Esoteric]

Go to see you wvbcsound. There are a lot of times churches try to get something for nothing in order to be "good stewards" not realizing that good stewardship does not always mean getting something cheap, but rather getting value (not saying that was your goal jsbck). So the initial thought of "why not build a knowledge base?" is an awesome thought. But I know Technical Directors at a few very large multi-campus churches. They are all very knowledgeable, and you know what they do when they have a project? They call in professionals. They work closely with them. They manage everything and use their knowledge to make sure they are getting what they want. But they know that they do not know enough to bypass the professionals (and no offense, but these guys know more than a lot of guys on the road out there, much less volunteer Technical Directors at local small churches). They know that you can learn about technologies, usages, even specific products, but that generic system outlines and equipment lists are fun to look at, but essentially useless.

I would 100% support some sort of generic knowledge base (I have been meaning to write some lighting guides for my website and this site that I swear I will get around to), but the OP's idea is just useless. Nothing personal js, I know you had everyone's best interests at heart.

Mike

[jksbc]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Go to see you wvbcsound. There are a lot of times churches try to get something for nothing in order to be "good stewards" not realizing that good stewardship does not always mean getting something cheap, but rather getting value (not saying that was your goal jsbck). So the initial thought of "why not build a knowledge base?" is an awesome thought. But I know Technical Directors at a few very large multi-campus churches. They are all very knowledgeable, and you know what they do when they have a project? They call in professionals. They work closely with them. They manage everything and use their knowledge to make sure they are getting what they want. But they know that they do not know enough to bypass the professionals (and no offense, but these guys know more than a lot of guys on the road out there, much less volunteer Technical Directors at local small churches). They know that you can learn about technologies, usages, even specific products, but that generic system outlines and equipment lists are fun to look at, but essentially useless.

I would 100% support some sort of generic knowledge base (I have been meaning to write some lighting guides for my website and this site that I swear I will get around to), but the OP's idea is just useless. Nothing personal js, I know you had everyone's best interests at heart.

Mike

The name's Joe. I don't take it personal at all. I really appreciate everyone's input on the subject. I've learned a lot from you Mike as well as many others. The post the pastor posted under the IMAG thread was very similar to what I'm talking about. It's great to get ideas from other churches. That guy went above and beyond taking pictures and posting diagrams to show us his system. It's not that I want something for nothing. It's just that we small churches who have the vision and mindset that we are not going to stay small need something to set our goals by. Not many pros want to come in to a church and design systems that may not get purchased for three or four years. It's not just about trying to go the cheap route. It's more about getting an idea of what's needed to achieve a goal.

Thanks!

[memcowboy]

Originally Posted by jksbc

It's not that I want something for nothing. It's just that we small churches who have the vision and mindset that we are not going to stay small need something to set our goals by. Not many pros want to come in to a church and design systems that may not get purchased for three or four years. It's not just about trying to go the cheap route. It's more about getting an idea of what's needed to achieve a goal.

Thanks!

I think I understand some of the issues you are facing. As a small(er) church, we usually don't have the funds available for a complete install. Instead, we have to do things in phases. My experience with some of the professionals in my area has been disappointing. When they realize that the entire project make take several budget years to complete, they either disappear or offer only the cheapest equipment suggestions that may not be satisfactory for the application.

I think a better question in the original post would have been to ask for a general idea of what a church needs to get to accomplish a project. Many of us are volunteers that simply do not know what we do not know. We don't know what to ask a professional for. Since we do not know what we need, we have no clue about costs, timelines, etc. One of the first things a professional needs to know is what the budget is for the project. If we do not have any idea what kind of equipment we need, we cannot develop a realistic budget, no matter how broad. As an example, I may want to add some new par cans to my lighting setup. If I don't know that I need a dimmer pack to control the lights and a new light board because my current one is maxxed out, I may think that $200-$300 for the cans is a sufficient budget when it is nowhere close.

A general idea of what may be required, understanding that every situation is different, could be very helpful for a lot of churches. If we know on the front-end that we need to ask a professional about switchers or CAT5 vs DMX or what is required for in-ear monitors, etc., we are ahead of the game, more likely to have a good experience with a professional, not waste the professional's time, and not be taken by a disreputable professional that could give the good guys a bad name.

To Joe, aren't there any professionals in Jackson or Birmingham that could come to help you? I finally got lucky and met a professional through a friend. This guy is someone I can call to find out what I need to find out before going any further. He is also someone I can trust, gives us a good deal, is willing to work with us long-term, and is willing to share his knowledge with me so I can learn more to help the church. A good relationship with a good professional can go a long way toward building the right system for your specific situation.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by memcowboy

My experience with some of the professionals in my area has been disappointing. When they realize that the entire project make take several budget years to complete, they either disappear or offer only the cheapest equipment suggestions that may not be satisfactory for the application.

Originally Posted by memcowboy

I finally got lucky and met a professional through a friend. This guy is someone I can call to find out what I need to find out before going any further. He is also someone I can trust, gives us a good deal, is willing to work with us long-term, and is willing to share his knowledge with me so I can learn more to help the church.

One of the biggest issues in the AVL and media industry is that practically anyone can be a 'professional'. Then there are the often widely differing aspects of the industry e.g. someone with experience in studios and recording may not be experienced in large venues or live sound or vice versa. Combine those with the myriad of potential roles and titles (manufacturer, dealer, contractor, consultant, rep, salesperson, designer, 'engineer', technician and so on) and it is very difficult for people not in the industry to understand or recognize who they are or should be talking to as a professional.

I think many times people become disillusioned with 'professionals' in the media technology industry not just because of the particular parties involved but in some cases because they were probably not the right parties to be involved for that situation. The more the professionals can do to help clarify the roles and relationships, the better for everyone. Unfortunately, those interested more in personal gain than the industry or the overall perception of industry professional too often intentionally try to blur or obscure the differentiations if it benefits them to do so.

Originally Posted by memcowboy

A good relationship with a good professional can go a long way toward building the right system for your specific situation.

True in just about any aspect of church operations but one also has to remember that a relationship has two sides, it is not just them supporting you but also you supporting them. Where mutual respect and support exist, good relationships can develop and grow, but all take and no give from either party can kill even the best professional relationship.

[Esoteric]

Bravo Brad. Good post!

As far as budgets go, I know when people first contact me with no budget I ask what they want to do (in your case add some cans, a better light board, and a dimmer pack or two). Then I can give them an initial ballpark figure (in that case I might ballpark $1500 because I like to start high and then come in under budget) and we can begin discussions.

Of course it can work the other way too. I have worked with many clients who say "we have $10000 to upgrade the lighting system, this is our vision, how can we move toward that?" and we can start the discussion from there.

It is good to do your research and not get "taken in", however that also goes both ways. For example I had a client who insisted that Sennheiser was better than Audio Technica. Now there are opinions both ways, but to me there is a reason that Sennheiser is one of the industry standards. Well anyway, this client was not comparing apples to apples and were buying the low end Senn units, when with their budget would allow for mid level (or even high end) AT units. Now all their "research" told them to buy Senn and Senn. But after seeing recommendations, talking to me, and actually hearing the microphones they went with the AT (this is not an advertisement for Senn or AT, as I specify both depending on the job!!!). In the end their trust in me got them a better (IMHO and theirs) product.

Of course I have also had clients who come in and bring me very detailed drawings and equipment lists and even pricing. Of course the system they wanted was NOT correct in any sense of the word. But they had done their "research" and were convinced they were right.

Of course we had built a relationship that allowed them to trust me. But all relationships have to start somewhere.

Mike

[memcowboy]

Mike, you and Brad both make great points. That is why a broad overview of what may be required for a project could be a tremendous help for many of us. Knowing upfront what types of hardware we may need can help us make better decisions about who to consult, what budget to set, how realistic a project is, etc. It can also help to avoid shellshock when we talk to a professional and they start telling us the equipment and setup needed to accomplish a project. It keeps from wasting the church's time and the professional's time.

Of course it goes without saying that Internet research can sometimes do more harm than good. When someone that is uneducated about a project determines that only X and Y can get the job done, they too often ignore the professional that deals in that type of project regularly. Again, this is where a broad overview without specifics can help. If we know that we need two cameras, a switcher, a separate computer, and a second projector to get IMAG (I have no idea if that is accurate so forgive me for an inaccurate example), we know where to start. No brands need to be mentioned, only the bare bones of what we need.

Brad made a great point about how many people claim to be experts but aren't. That is another time that having an understanding of what is needed can help churches avoid people that can't handle the job. The professional may know everything about recording but nothing about live sound. A general knowledge by the church can weed out the people that aren't qualified for that job.

My specific case of disillusionment with a professional, however, was not a case of the wrong person. I asked a highly reguarded professional designer/installer/distributer to design a new lighting system. After talking with a representative of the company at length, including budget outlines, measurements, needs, goals, etc., he left with a promise to get a proposal to me and the church within a week. After a week went by, I called his office repeatedly to get the information but could never talk with anyone that wanted to help. The professional abandoned my church's project because he knew it was going to be a several-year project instead of one large project. In the end, this company lost a nearly $20,000 project and a future customer.

[wvbcsound]

I just thought of another reason for a "knowledge base." Sometimes we approach a project with a load of self confidence that we can do the job, as we get deeper into the job we realize our knowledge and skillsets are not really up to the job. Then we have two choices: 1. plow ahead hoping we'll "luck out or hope God will bless our ignorance." 2. realize our plight when we start looking at specs and come to the conclusion that we really need a pro.
My pastor and I were talking about some of my statements I had made about the inadequecy of some work that had been done by our "eager volunteers." He finally saw the light due to safety and efficency and finally gave the go ahead to try to find a pro to address some of our problems.

Charlie Holmes
Head volunteer geek at WVBC Imperial Beach CA

[tpichler]

Great point.

Along that same line, it is also helpful when you hire a contractor you have something to compare their work against to help determine if the company you hired is doing an acceptable job in an area where you don't have enough domain knowledge to verify their work.