New System Design and Questions

[tlsmith083]

The Church has received a miracle!! A significant contribution which will be officially announced Sunday. It's going to allow us to pay off phase 1 and build the new Sanctuary with money left over. It's an amazing time.

So as we plan the new building (seating 600 + 200 in the balcony) we are looking to install a video system to meet current and forseeable future needs. The Donor wants us to break ground soon, so we're under the gun to get the planning done as soon as possible.

I work with a guy who does Audio design/build work, and is actually very good at it (contrary to what some D/B reputations might be). He has done some video, and I am comfortable with video and lighting, being more informed then most, but doesn't like to call myself an expert. This is a big project, but certainly not outside the scope of what we do, just a bit higher budget then usual. I also have extensive background in low voltage work (mostly small commercial/residential)

So the cliff notes version of the plan is as follows

Sony BRC-H700 PTZ cameras sending HD/SDI to the switcher. We're looking at the data video SE-3000 switcher. Also going to have a single Sony camera manned on a stead i cam set up (I can't recall the exact model, but it's the same 1/3" 3CCD's.) which we will convert @ the camera with an AJA box. Sending Gen Locks to the camera's and switcher. Recording each camera to hard drives with the ability to capture the video on computer with one of the AJA kona cards and a Raid6 configuration. We're going with the Allen-Heath iLive system, so we'll put a board in the video room to mix live separately from the FOH mix. Also going to probably use DANTE to get 64in/out to the computer.

Like I said the cliff notes, there is more, but that's the basics.

I had a couple questions that I can't find answers to.

1. Is there a calculation to help predict how much of an image a camera will get? I seem to recall a video camera focal length is different then an SLR. One camera will sit about 90' from the baptismal from a straight on shot. I'm wondering if I mount it high will I be able to get a head and shoulders shot (closer then I actually need, but it will make me comfortable that it will obtain anything I need). The Sony lens is 72mm and it's a 12x zoom. Does that equate to 864mm lens? And how do you calculate what you will see from 90'? I'm sure there is a scientific way to do it. Maybe someone can point to a website?

2. We're going to run RG59 (most runs less than 100'), and all runs are less then 200', so I feel safe even after patching and doing whatever within the video room we are well under 308'. We'll maintain separation from the electrical, and cross at 90 degrees. Would RG6 or even RG6 quad shield make a difference? The wire will run in conduit.

3. Any glaring concerns? My D/B friend is a datavideo distributor, so that's why we chose it over Grass Valley. I am a Sony Vegas user, so that is why we are capturing with Kona. We don't intend to do IMAG, but will include the capability. We also have 2-3 productions each year, and will edit those in post.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have

Tom

[tdangelo]

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

1. Is there a calculation to help predict how much of an image a camera will get? I seem to recall a video camera focal length is different then an SLR. One camera will sit about 90' from the baptismal from a straight on shot. I'm wondering if I mount it high will I be able to get a head and shoulders shot (closer then I actually need, but it will make me comfortable that it will obtain anything I need). The Sony lens is 72mm and it's a 12x zoom.

At 90 feet distance between a camera and talent, using a 1/3rd inch imager and a 4.5 to 54.0mm optical zoom, the tightest shot that can be achieved at the end of the lens (where the lens is the least light efficient) is 4’11” vertical by 8’9” horizontal, basically a head to knee shot on a average height person.

This camera only produces tighter equivalent focal lengths if/when digital zoom is used, however this tends to result in lower rez unpleasing images.

- Tom D'Angelo
All Mobile Video
New York City

[zactommo]

First thing I would say, since your buliding a new facility, is, wire for the future! You may only be using 2 cameras now, but think were you'd put 5 or 6 if you had them and put the wiring in. Put in wiring for overflow monitors throughout our facility, monitors for the stage, side of stage, and so on. I gaurantee that you won't regret it!

The second thing I would say is...WOW, an SE-3000 is a big switcher for your first foray into video. 16 HD-SDI inputs! I definatly think it is good to go bigger rather than smaller, but 16 inputs may be a bit too much. 8 inputs may be a better option, which gives you room to grow from where you are, but isn't a waste either. Something like the panasonic AV-HS400N would be good for the job. Also worth thinking about intergrating your projection system into this too. I know you said you don't want to do imag, but you can uses one of the switchers AUX buses to send the input from your projection computer directly to the projector screens all the time, and then you have access to the projection computer feed if needed, and if you wanted to do Imag for a certain thing, its only a few settings changes away. I'd run HD SDI to your projectors, then use blackmagic mini converters to convert the signal to what you need for the projector http://www.blackmagic-design.com/pro...iniconverters/

I'm not sure what presentation software you currently use. ProPresenter supports outputing HD SDI via a blackmagic Decklink HD card, or similar, and can also send an alpha channel, if you want to move into keying in the future. Since your a PC user, you may want to stick with the PC platform. I'm not sure if any of the PC presentation programs support this like propresenter, i'm sure someone else on here can tell us!

When you say Stedicam for your second camera, do you mean something like this:
I could only really see a stedicam being used in a church setting in a larger camera shoot, like 5+ as a near or on stage camera during the worship. It might be better to stick with a tripod, in a studio config with a monitor and zoom & focus demands for a 2 camera shoot.

Finally, what is your intended output medium for the video your producing? Webcast, local TV broadcast, etc..?

Those were just the first things that came to mind after reading your post. Hope the information is helpful

[tlsmith083]

Thanks for the replies.

As I said it's the cliff notes version. We're looking @ at least 4 (and probably 5) cameras as well as the portable one in the sanctuary, and wiring for 9 total (as well as 3 locations for the mobile cam to plug into). We also are wiring at least one location in each classroom for total of around 20-22 locations. One of the ideas is to be able to move cameras to different locations for seminars, etc, and create high quality DVD's.

The immediate output is DVD's of the service and occasional productions which we will edit in post. We will end up streaming (probably a flash server and then expand), but not something we will do day 1. We will have the capability to create Blu-Ray disks for the special productions, but we'll see what the demand is for them.

I realize the SE-3000 is a little big, but with the mobile camera we're looking @ 5 cameras to start, and during a production I would not be surprised if we used a total of 7 or 8. The 3000 keeps us future proofed.

We use Easy Worship and it will take the HD signal into it (I am pretty sure anyway, and will be certain of how we are getting it to EW before we finish the planning).

The data video Dac-8 allows us to convert from HD-SDI to HDMI which will be our primary delivery to remote locations (foyer, etc). So we'll run HD-SDI and then purchase these as we need them. I know AJA has a similar converter as do a few other manufacturers.

The steadicam is this one
http://www.steadicam.com/images/cont...in_brchr_9.pdf
Similar to what you showed, just much smaller. We will have a tripod as well if that would be the best option for a particular need.

Thanks for the final numbers of 4.3" vertical, but I was really hoping to learn the actual calculations so I can see what the other locations are going to give me. The baptismal is up and behind the platform, so I have several ideas on camera placement, just trying to figure out how some of the longer distances will work. Also, from the numbers you did give me it seems the lens focal length doesn't matter then as much? It's a 72mm lens and 12x zoom. None of your numbers seem to use those in your answer. A link for me to learn would be awesome. Basically asking for a fishing pole, not just a fish.

So back to the original questions since I've added more info.

1. Calculation for predicting zoomed pictures
2. Is RG59 going to be good enough?
3. Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance.

Tom

[bpalermini]

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

The steadicam is this one
http://www.steadicam.com/images/cont...in_brchr_9.pdf
Similar to what you showed, just much smaller. We will have a tripod as well if that would be the best option for a particular need.

Have you used a small steadycam like the one you link to? At work we have one something like that and find it not very effective and difficult to use for very long. Even with a light camera the weight is difficult to manage for long unless you're camera person is a weight lifter.

We also find that the shots don't really look very steady, again, even with a very light camera and no it cables connected to it while we're shooting.

YMMV but my advice would be to get something that you wear and not waste even a small amount on a handheld only steadycam.

[Borggren]

You can use this lens calculator from Fujinon. Choose the JVC/Pana/Sony 1/3" HD in the camera format list. http://www.fujinon.com/Broadcast/Opt...alculator.aspx
Where do you get the 72mm lens, 12x zoom from? The Sony specs says the focal length is 4,5mm to 54mm, which also matches the 12x optical zoom.

If you are distributing HDMI signals, remember that all distribution equipment etc. supports HDCP.

[tdangelo]

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

Thanks for the final numbers of 4.3" vertical, but I was really hoping to learn the actual calculations so I can see what the other locations are going to give me.

I use pCam. Its an app made for iPhone or iPod Touch.

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

Also, from the numbers you did give me it seems the lens focal length doesn't matter then as much?

On the contrary, focal length, aperature, zoom power, MTF, etc., calculations all operate exactly as they do on a 35mm motion picture, 35mm still film, video camera, DSLR, etc., etc., camera SUBJECT TO flange consistency, imager size and aspect ratio.

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

It's a 72mm lens and 12x zoom.

According to Sony’s website it is 12x however 4.5mm to 54 mm optical zoom.

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

Basically asking for a fishing pole, not just a fish.

HaHa, yes, I understand. pCam is a wonderfully powerful program but expensive. Both Fujinon and Canon have Java focal length calculators on their websites.

- Tom D'Angelo
All Mobile Video
NYC

[tlsmith083]

Thanks everyone, very helpful.

We were looking at the harness that goes with the merlin and will probably add it based on your experience. I was waffling a little bit on if it was worth it or not.

My mistake on the 72mm lens. I saw it somewhere in one of the specs I've looked at. The calculator will be most helpful.

Tom

[zactommo]

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

I realize the SE-3000 is a little big, but with the mobile camera we're looking @ 5 cameras to start, and during a production I would not be surprised if we used a total of 7 or 8. The 3000 keeps us future proofed.

Apologies, I gleaned from your original post that you were starting with two cameras. Since your starting with 5, the SE-3000 is absolutely the right choice!

If your talking about a Sony 1/3 HD camera with a 12x lens, its probably a Z5 or Z7, so remember that your going to need a time base corrector, for that, as the camera doesn't have a genlock input, and the SE-3000 requires genlocked sources.

RG59 cabling will be absolute fine for what your wanting to do.

I'd second the suggestion that the steadicam isn't a great idea. Operating one is quiet a skill, and also takes a lot of strength. Your operator will need to do a lot of training to get upto speed, physically, and technically. Stedicams are generally not used zoomed in alot either, so they are usually pretty close to the subject the are filming.

Since you've got a lot of potential sources and outputs (your different conference rooms etc) have you considered getting a video router? If your going to be changing things a lot, it could make life a lot easier.

[tlsmith083]

Actually going with the BRC-H700 with the HD/SDI card. It does have Genlock and we're sending a sync to each camera as well as the switcher and hand held camera (through the AJA component to HD/SDI converter).

We need a portable camera no matter what we do for some of the productions, and the thought was to use it up close. We may end up putting the camera on a tripod, but I think we will try the stead i cam with the vest option thy have.

We looked at a video router, but instead are going to run everything into the video room to a patch panel and then route it manually. We figure especially in the beginning we won't be moving things around much, and if we do we might invest in the router another time.

Thanks again for the input. It's making me stop and consider other possibilities.

Tom

[tdangelo]

Originally Posted by tlsmith083

and we're sending a sync to each camera as well as the switcher and hand held camera (through the AJA component to HD/SDI converter).

Which one? If you are refering to the HD10A (analog component HD to HSDSI) the sync input does not work that way.

If you are using a camera that is not genlockable and switcher that does not have internal frame syncs, you will need an external frame sync. That could potentially cost more than the camera.

- Tom D'Angelo
All Mobile Video
NYC

[tlsmith083]

I'm confused then.

The AJA Gen10 outputs a tri-level sync
The HD10A accepts an external tri-level sync. Or it certainly looks like it anyway. I was planning on sending that signal to all cameras and the switcher. Audio comes directly from the sound board and there is a delay knob in the switcher, so I figured I was covered.

What did I miss? Feel free to point me to where I read it myself.

Tom