Need help for switcher

[krisnrg]

Hey guys we want to get into iMag and I've been looking for some switchers that I like. I really would like to get an HD switcher like the Datavideo SE2000 or the Panasonic AVHS300G. But besides the fact the my budget is around 3500 the problem is that we only currently have one camera and it's SD (Sony PD-170)

And to get that working with these switchers I would need the black-magic mini converters and that would add up. I suppose I would need one from the camera to the switcher and from the output of the switcher to DVI to the projector.

So correct me if I'm wrong; it would be one of the above switchers and the two mini converters just to get started right?

I think that leaves me to have to go with analog SD. Anyone have any ideas of a good solid analog switcher? It would need to have a keyer so we can overlay some lower thirds on the screen live.

We also want to get into broadcast but the nature of imag and broadcast don't really mix well. They are different types of shots that you need to get. Basically I need to start buying this stuff little by little. However buying a switcher that we would use for imag wouldn't necessarily help for broadcast right? I was thinking of just recording and editing manually in FCP and sending that off to broadcast. Using the switcher just for imag... what do you guys think?

Thanks in advanced for your help.

[sempei13]

We also want to get into broadcast but the nature of imag and broadcast don't really mix well. They are different types of shots that you need to get. Basically I need to start buying this stuff little by little. However buying a switcher that we would use for imag wouldn't necessarily help for broadcast right? I was thinking of just recording and editing manually in FCP and sending that off to broadcast. Using the switcher just for imag... what do you guys think?

You can call shots to make a hybrid show. I think the problem is having a budget for SD and wanting to go HD. The only idea I have is that if you have analog component inputs, you can often switch one composite in the place of three component.

Editing the iso shots will take a long time and more cameras make it harder. I guess you could have a switched IMAG feed and add b-roll and wide shots later for a more broadcast feel. That might help. You could use the multicam view in Final Cut to do it.

I think an occasional wide shot on IMAG is okay for sight-line reasons, but if you find that you tend to put video onscreen that's smaller than real life as a rule, rather than exception, that's where you'll have problems.

Paul

[zactommo]

How far in the future to you see yourself getting HD cameras? I'd generally say that unless you have SD SDI cameras, then it would be better to get an SD switcher, and upgrade the cameras first, before you get your HD switcher. A few SD switchers that would do the trick for you, Data Video SE-800 or SE-900, Panasonic MX-50, MX-70, AW-SW350. As far as the broadcast vs Imag problem goes, this is what I try to do for my different setups. This is assuming that its the sermon/message that you want for broadcast/dvd's. I will try and rig the video setup in a way that I can send the signal from the camera that is doing an MCU follow (usually my camera 2 position) straight to the screens during the message, and then I use the main switcher to do the broadcast cut live, with cutaways, wideshots etc. Then for the rest of the service, I switch back to the output of my main switcher going to the screens. There are a few ways of doing this. One way is using a smaller, cheaper switcher downstream of the main switcher (I did this over the weekend with an SE-900 as the main switcher, and MX-50 as the second switcher), or you can use something like a kramer presentation switcher/scaler, or if your system is genlocked, or your switchers individual channel preview output is in sync with your program output, then you can use a simple manual switch.

[petereit]

You wouldn't necessarily need a convert on the output of the Panasonic AVHS300G. It has component outputs on preview and program.

However, it only has a luma keyer. That may present problems with your lower thirds.

[krisnrg]

@zactommo
That's what I was thinking.. going SD and pushing to buy and HD camera. We don't have HD projectors anyways. The camera would be the Canon XH A1S.

That way we can use IMAG now, train people to use the gear and start recording the services to possibly do broadcast.

The mixer I was thinking of was the Roland V8 to keep costs down and invest in a the camera instead. That way we can later go for the HD mixer and send the V8 to the multi purpose room.

Also if I bought the V8 and the Canon what else would I need to get that setup working. I just asking in case I missed anything. The V8 has a built in scaler for the computer. Besides cables and some good tripods I would be set right? Also I'll look into the mixers you suggested. The Panasonic mx-70 seems expensive for HD and for the fact that I will look to replace it soon. So I would like to be at around $2500 for the mixer.

If anyone has more suggestions let me know. Out budget is limited but if I buy slowly in pieces leaving myself room for upgrade I can definitely build a decent system. It would be easier to justify a nice camera for now.

[zactommo]

Just a word of warning, the Canon XHA1s only outputs HD via component, so if you go for those cameras, it will seriously limit your choice of switcher, or mean you'll have to shell out extra money for either extra component input cards for your switcher, or separate component to SDI converters. I would consider going for the XHG1s, which has HD-SDI output, or a similar camera with HD-SDI output. Considering the switcher is just an intermediate step, have you considered getting something second hand? I've never really been a fan of the edirol switchers, but I know churches like them, because they are cheap. You should keep your eye on ebay and the like. I think old faithful mx-50 goes for about $1000 on there, but you maybe be able to pickup something better like a SE-800, or one of Sony's smaller switchers with built in frame syncs. Your also going to need a comms system, which people always underestimate the cost of. It will probably be good to have a distribution amplifier, and you'll need to think about how you want to record your output too. Could be a DVD recorder, hard disk record, straight to computer, etc..

[Gracetech]

Unless you are doing TV Broadcasting i say stay SD until you have the money to change over. It will also behoove you to get a camera that has atleast a 1/2" imager on it. The Larger chip will allow you to shoot in lower light and to deal with the often less than ideal lighting in worship centers. If you can get a camera with SDI then it will greatly simplify things. You may want to talk to your money people and see about planing a bigger change over instead of trying to piece it together. Some times you just have to piece it together but if you can work out a time frame to do a complete overhaul you will find that you will be more pleased with the results. Often the people think you are wasting money if they only see very small changes but if you go from consumer grade to production grade gear all at once it will look like night and day.

Remember when picking out your gear shoot with your end product in mind. If you are just doing IMag then it's possible to get by with consumer gear if you have small screens. So if you are wanting to get higher quality gear you may want the screens to be bigger, brighter, and higher resolution. If you are shooting for the web then it may not matter if you are encoding at low resolutions as most consumer gear can look fine at those sizes. Of course if you want to encode for HD on the web then you will want pro SD gear or atleast prosumer HD.

Oh and don't forget better lighting. As if you needed something else to throw in the mix.

crt

BTW Welcome to CMN!

Also is there a reason why you are doing IMag? Is the auditorium to big? Give us a run down of your layout, screen size, room size...blablabla

[krisnrg]

Originally the wanted to do broadcast(Telemundo). But that's difficult and I don't think we a ready for that. Then they said the wanted IMAG basically.

Out church sits around 600 people and we pull out maybe 100 more chairs in special events. It a wide auditorium. We have 3 projectord up. We do a lot of multi media, I make weekly video announcements. But we have never had a switcher so right now to play a DVD someone has to sit in front of the main projector and switch it to video with the remote.

I have spotted some Panasonic MX50's on ebay will that allow me to also do lower thirds live on screen?

I haven't checked the specs on the MX50 too much. But I imagine I will need a scaler for the computer running easy worship correct?

Anything else I am missing?

Thanks

[krisnrg]

So can anyone chime in here? I'm about to the the MX-50 used. But I just found out you can't use a Quad Monitor with it. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

Also it doesn't have a DVI in. Anyone know of a good affordable scaler?

I want to be able to do basic IMAG and have a verse up in lower thirds with the image of the pastor.

[sempei13]

MX-50 is SD. Computers are closer to HD. So you would need to scan convert your computer run it into the switcher and then scale it up to go to your projectors. It's not perfect, but I've done it and it works. For a Quad view, you could get a security quad unit and run that into a monitor for source preview. I think the MX-50 is an a>b switcher btw. It doesn't have true preview if memory serves. An analog 4 monitor 2-3 ru unit might be a better choice (they tend to have loop outs.)

Paul

[zactommo]

MX-50 doesn't have a quad preview output, but has individual preview outputs on each channel, and it can do lower thirds, using luma keying. Its is an A-B type mixer, so its slightly more difficult to use, but an MX-50 will defiantly keep those budgeting folks happy. There are plenty of scan converters on the market; they're not hard to find. Switchers with DVI/VGA inputs just have the scan converters built into the switcher, so its not a big difference buying an external one.

[krisnrg]

Thanks guy you've been so much help.

One more question.

Someone recommended a SE-500 for Datavideo. It has quad-view which I liked. Anyone know how these two compare? It doesn't seem to have keying so whatever benefits I get from quad-view are quickly nullified.

Any thoughts on the Datavideo Se-500? I have seen threads here about it but not in comparison with the MX-50.

Since it doesn't have keying can I add that somehow with another device?