Using Guitar Amps

[jonnyfishstix]

once again modelers can be used if you have lots and i mean lots of time.

however the best solution for guitar would be micing a small amp. hands down best solution. if there was a better one you would see every major worship recording artist use them. hillsong is a collection of vox ac30's ac15's, and various other amps, desperation is a marshall and others, crowder is all kinds of 15-50w amps (vox pretty previlent there as well), charlie hall's guitar player and him use a stileto amp (15w ef86) shall i keep going....

the only major one that i know of was lincoln brewster and after talking to him about it he told me how he started doing it. he recorded his album and then got his hands on one of the pods. he then replicated each sound that was on his album with the pod. but it was 2 weeks of in studio listening to each patch. its not like you can get and use presets and such you really really have to get into the settings. he also goes thru a preamp and other stuff to get his live sound. don't think that you can just plug a pod into the direct box and get his sound... just not going to happen and if you tell me you do then your i will say false. i actually tried even with his patches to use a Pod XT Live. Although i got a decent sound it wasn't quite right. It normally sounded very digital. You can hear it in the live album at different times when he has a great patch and then when its a decent one.

you want a small nice tube amp get yourself one of the following:

Epiphone Valve Jr. Head and Cab
Vox AC10TV great combo

Neither should cost you more then $250 NEW

Don't bother with the Blues Jr. its so expensive right now for what your getting (15w class A 12" Combo). if your going to spend that money just get yourself a Vox AC15CC1 and then later buy a better speaker for it.

Just mic it and never look back

[Travis]

Frankster

here are a few:

David Howell Evans (aka the edge U2)
Ed O'brien (radiohead)
Steve Marker (garbage)
Charlie Clouser (nine inch nails)
Tom Rice Oxley (Keane ---Bass)
Michael Ward (wallflowers)

also here is a link to a whole bunch more including Benny Rietveld from Santana, James Hetfield and and Kirk Hammett from Metallica:
http://line6.com/artists/list/


I am also willing to bet that none of these individuals played in their church this Sunday.

A digital amp model does not sound the same as a tube amp and no one should be arguing other wise. Computers don't do random!

I have always wondered why we don't hear the keyboard player (or maybe even the guitar player) complaining that the strings or brass on a keyboard don't sound real enough for church and insisting on putting a grand piano and full orchestra on the platform as well. I assume that everyone knows that this is a sacrifice that we all understand needs to be made for what ever reason, not enough space, not enough money to purchase the instruments, or simply no one to play them.

The issue should not be an emotional one, if the venue/sanctuary is large enough or the acoustics permit the use of a mic'd live amp then it would be acceptable to use one. If not then an alternative must be used, can the amp and mic be located off stage somewhere, will something like an axcabinet reduce the db level enough, or...the use of an amp modeler like the line 6 pod.

In my experience a live mic'd amp CAN nearly always be used IF the guitar player will keep the levels in check. The problem is that usually the guitar players that are willing to do that are also the same ones that are willing to sacrifice their "tone" for the overall mix and would use a pod if necessary.

We have found that the answer to this issue does not get solved technically, but instead spiritually. Strong worship teams work together! Develop a team and a sense of family by praying and playing (not music think monkey bars) together. It doesn't happen over night but when the soundboard is not against the guitar and the guitar is not against the soundboard your music will never sound better.


my 2 cents

[jonnyfishstix]

Originally Posted by Travis

Frankster

here are a few:

David Howell Evans (aka the edge U2)
Ed O'brien (radiohead)
Steve Marker (garbage)
Charlie Clouser (nine inch nails)
Tom Rice Oxley (Keane ---Bass)
Michael Ward (wallflowers)

are you saying they don't mic their amps? confused by this statement

[poolvibe]

Originally Posted by jonnyfishstix

are you saying they don't mic their amps? confused by this statement

I too would be interested to see a pic of their live setup with a pod and a cord and no amps behind . They may "endorse" but I doubt they use it regularly. I could be wrong tho as I am "old school".

F

[Travis]

what I am saying is that when the need arises professional artists are willing to do whatever it takes for the good of the final product.

I do not think that any of them play a live arena concert through a pod. however I have seen amp modelers in racks used for some effects at concerts.

also..you guys don't really believe that the wall of amps behind major venue guitar players are actually getting used do you?

I know one thing for certain... the studio recording guitar players that you see on most albums are some of the easiest to work with people you will ever meet.

That is the reason they get the work... there are plenty of phenomenal guitar players on the planet... no producer wants to work with a jerk with an ego that creates its own gravity.


Still no argument ... we wouldn't know who David Gilmour is if he would have used a line6 pod instead of a Alembic F-2B preamp. You simply can not get the randomness from a solid-state device that you can get with tubes. A pod does not sound the same as a tube amp, but does it sound terrible? I am willing to bet not to the majority of you congregation.

If it is possible to use a mic'd amp then do so, but there are places where even a little more of stage volume is unacceptable and that is where the amp modelers shine.

Most church/amateur musicians do not know the frustration of an amateur sound guy. Routinely they are asked to change the laws of physics. When another mic or amp causes him to loose 3db of head room and now he is unable to bring the choir/vocalist to their proper place in the mix with out feed back it makes you wanna through up your hands and walk away.

Contrary to popular opinion people wanna hear the lead singer...it's whose name is on the ticket you paid $90+ bucks for.

get to know the person behind the board...if you are behind the board - learn to play an instrament... the problem lies in the fact that you don't speak the same language. Try to understand the obstacles each other are trying to overcome.

I also am always amused that churches always look at what gear professional touring groups use and think that getting it will make everything better. What we should pay more attention to is how those professional touring groups practice and sound check.

How many church bands let the sound engineer have total control of the first part of practice till he gets all of the levels and monitor mixes worked out? If we would let them do that 99% of the issues would never happen.

still my 2 cents

[gman283]

Being a soundman, and guitar player, and worshipper... I have varying opinions..

1st... if the players are unwilling to compromise; Pride is an issue and needs to be addressed
2nd.... being a tone junkie I completely understand the whole amp arguement... Looking and listening to Lincoln Brewster I found out a modeling sloution can sound great, i.e...POD or Axe-FX...
3rd....Look at Iso cabs... Jet city just release an ISO CAB that ROCKS....

thats my 2 cents

[Stevieb]

I'm new here, but I am not going to wade through seven pages of replies just to see if this has been said already...

I am a part-time pro sound man. I am pretty good, and quite thorough- I know what I am doing, and what I am talking about.

The bottom line is HOW IT SOUNDS TO THE AUDIENCE. Poor balance between guitarist and vocalist is NEVER good. Guitarist tend to have out-sized egos (I know, I am a guitarist, too...) which too often shows up as "I'm the ONLY one who's gonna control my sound/tone/volume." This attitude has NO place in stage.

The overall sound is the responsibility of the sound man. Period. Guitarist should be in control of their TONE, the sound man should be in charge of their VOLUME.

A QUIET sound on stage is much, much preferred. Guitar amps should be only as loud as is necessary for the guitarist to hear himself coming from his amp. For a typical praise band, that means 50 watts, MAX- and your instincts are right, 20-30 watts are probably all anyone should need. Place each guitarist's amp about 10 feet directly behind him, perhaps on a stand or chair to angle it up a bit and get it off the floor. Mic it (please don't go direct- you lose all the tone the power amp, cabinet and speaker are adding to the overall sound) with a SM57, off-center of the speaker, and feed that to the board. Your guitarist is right, you will NEVER get as good tone going direct.


You should not be buying the guitarist their amplifiers. You will never win. You SHOULD give them guidelines/restrictions, and insist they follow them. Tell them this:

1. Choose the amp that gives you (the guitarist) the tone and flexibility you want.
2. MAXIMUM wattage allowed are 50 watts for solid state (including tube-pre-amp hybrids and Vox's AC line), 30 watts for tubes (including tube power-amp hybrids.) Keep the receipt- if you break this rule, I am sending your amp home- and you with it unless you can come up with one that is within these guidelines.
3. At sound check, you are to follow the sound man's instructions TO THE LETTER. If you are tempted to turn your amp up after sound check, I will be happy to give you a nice, big piece of tape to put over your volume control.
4. If you (guitarist) can not or will not follow those guidelines, your services will no longer needed. Thank you.

I prefer tube amps, but on stage/live, their tonal advantages tend to get lost somewhat. My suggestions for amps:

SOLID STATE
Peavey Bandit 112
Fender Frontman 25
(Others that I can't recall at the moment- a single 12-inch speaker is all you need.)

TUBE
Peavey Classic 30
Fender Princeton, Fender Deluxe Reverb, (neither have a distorted channel, get a pedal...)
(My favorite little amp is a Fender Super Champ XD.)
Again, others that won't come to mind right now.

Hope this helps.