HD/SD simultaneous output switcher/scaler?

[mjl5007]

I'm looking into possible solutions for cleaning up the mess of video equipment we have in our tech booth, while simultaneously upgrading some of the existing infrastructure which is based entirely on composite video (CVBS) over RG-59. Here's what we've got:

Sources:

• DVD player (with composite and component outputs)
• 2 x Sony PTZ cameras running into a Vaddio ProductionVIEW camera controller/video switcher (composite and S-Video)
• Satellite receiver (SD only)
• Future: Presentation computer with digital output (DVI/HDMI/DisplayPort)
• Future: possibly a Blu-Ray player, which would be HDMI out

Displays:

• Sanyo PLC-XM100L projector (DVI, VGA, composite and component inputs)
• LCD TV in Lobby (we use this in split-screen with an EasyWorship feed via VGA and the 'video' feed via CVBS-over-RG-59; I believe it also has at least one component video input)
• Projector in overflow room (I believe only analog inputs; VGA, component?, composite)
• CRT TVs in downstairs rooms (kid's ministry, nursing mother's, etc.). These are currently fed via the CVBS feed RF-modulated onto RG-59 (Ch. 4)

Ideally what I'd like is a single piece of equipment that I can feed all of my sources into, and that can give me both digital and analog HD and SD outputs, simultaneously. I can then distribute the digital/HD output to those displays that can accept it, and do the same with the analog output to the remaining displays. To clarify, I'm operating under the assumption that all displays will show the same source simultaneously -- I don't want to get into the possibility of matrix/routing.


Two questions really:

1. Does such a piece of equipment exist, and how much is it going to hurt the pocketbook?
2. Does this approach seem reasonable, or is there a Better Way?

Thanks!

[Esoteric]

Do you need fade or wipe capability? Do you mind having matrix capabilities?

[petereit]

Actually doesn't make a lot of sense given that you're 99% SD. The only device you have capable of displaying HD is your single LCD TV in your lobby (I'm assuming its an HDTV.) Even if you upgrade to a BluRay player, the HDCP copy-protection built into it will most likely make it impossible to display the output to more than one screen.

[[Director] Joseph B]

When we moved into our new building early this year I was blessed with the addition of an IT professional - not only super knowledgeable but a genuinely nice guy.
We went to baluns over cat5 (vga) to flat panels (no more projector).
Upgraded the computer and we have a (home) switcher/scaler that needs to be installed.
Yeah it's a cheap $100 unit but it will take composite, vga and a line from our cable system (built in tuner) and output everything to VGA.
Les is adding a flat screen to our "overflow" (general purpose) room - the screen is there we just need to tie it into the main system.
Check your church for someone who works in the field and try to get them involved.

[mjl5007]

Mike:
We do not currently have fade or wipe capability, so no, it is not a requirement... although it would be nice to have As for matrix capability, I personally wouldn't mind having it although I can't think of any situations where we would use it at the moment. On the other hand, the other tech staff and volunteers would probably benefit most from a system which requires the least amount of button-pushing or cable-plugging to switch one source to all displays, rather than having to re-assign a source to each display individually.

Mark:
You're absolutely right that currently we only have one HD-capable display (the lobby is a plasma HDTV). However, we've just recently purchased a new HD camera (Panasonic AG-AC160A) and would like to begin moving towards HD presentation on a piece-by-piece basis going forward. The projector is only XGA, but XGA is still better than 480i which until recently was all we had for source video material. Now that we can record video in HD, sending 720p to the projector will still be an improvement even though it will admittedly still be scaled down to 1024x576. If we upgrade that projector to an HD-capable model in the future, even better. Same goes for if/when we begin replacing the other displays.

As for Blu-Ray/HDCP, I don't really foresee us wanting to show a whole lot of material that way, but even so, wouldn't an HDCP-compliant HDMI distribution amplifier allow us to distribute the signal to multiple HDCP-compliant displays?

Thanks guys for your responses!

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by petereit

Even if you upgrade to a BluRay player, the HDCP copy-protection built into it will most likely make it impossible to display the output to more than one screen.

Not impossible, but likely rather expensive.

Originally Posted by mjl5007

As for Blu-Ray/HDCP, I don't really foresee us wanting to show a whole lot of material that way, but even so, wouldn't an HDCP-compliant HDMI distribution amplifier allow us to distribute the signal to multiple HDCP-compliant displays?

No. For one thing, HDCP sources have a fixed number of 'keys' they can support and require one key for each connected destination device. That may be 16 keys or 1 key and not only can the quantity vary by model but that information is not always readily available. If you have more destinations than the source has keys something happens, that may be dropping the first key/device issued, denying the excess keys/devices requested or simply disabling the source and watching everything go blank.

Also, EDID comes into play. EDID tries to make typical connections 'plug and play' by having the source and destination devices communicate their capabilities (native and supported resolutions, scan rates, etc.) and automatically optimize the connection. That works great for one-to-one connections but creates a myriad of potential problems when connecting a source, much less multiple switched sources, to multiple and potentially quite different destinations.

So in the case of a HDMI DA, what happens if there is a non-HDCP compliant destination attached? Or if there are more destinations than a source has keys? Or if the destinations have different EDID information? This also affects matrix routing but with the added factor that anytime anything changes, be it a different source or an added destination or even a dropped destination, all the HDCP and EDID communication has to occur again.

There are routing and matrix switching products available that address key and EDID management, however these are obviously going to be more complex and expensive.

Just another example of where the media systems for many churches encompass aspects of both production and presentation/performance and thus may require some expertise in both aspects in order to develop effective solutions.

[mjl5007]

Well then... you learn something every day! Thanks for taking the time to type out that explanation, Brad. I'm always happy to learn something new, and the whole HDCP concept is one I've never had a chance to really learn about other than the basics.

Anyway, let's forget the Blu-Ray/HDCP issue for the time being, since it's really not a critical element for us. Let me step back and give a little background on why I'm trying to do what I'm describing.

The immediate problem I'm trying to solve is that of poor quality presentation of our recorded sermon videos (played back to the congregation when our pastor is preaching live at another venue). We currently record his sermon to DVD the night before via composite video from our camera, and then playback with a Sony consumer DVD player via composite video into the Vaddio ProductionVIEW, through a 1x4 composite video DA, and then to the projector (among other destinations). Besides the fact that the quality of the video when sent from the DVD player via composite video and shown on a 12'x9' screen just isn't very good by today's standards, every week it seems that something different is wrong with the video during playback as well: rolling horizontal bars, horizontally-scrolling areas of shadow, etc. All of these seem like analog video artifacts to me. One of our volunteers with a strong EE background has tried countless re-wirings to attempt to remove any grounding issues, but the quality still isn't where we want it to be. Given that our congregation hears the message via video at least once per month and sometimes more often, it's important to us that they can focus on the message itself and not be distracted by poor presentation.

All of this, coupled with the fact that our new HD camera means we finally have a source for video that is better than 480i, make me really keen on starting to upgrade our infrastructure to something A) better than composite video, B) digital, and C) capable of carrying an HD signal in the future. Understanding that the only display we currently have that can accept a digital signal is our projector (which is still only XGA), I still need to support all of the remaining analog-only displays, while leaving an easy, clear path for upgrading those displays piece-by-piece in the future.

Meanwhile, I'd also really like to streamline and simplify all of the equipment we currently use to do all of this video stuff. We're using the Vaddio ProductionVIEW as both a camera controller and a video switcher, but it's old, has been repaired multiple times, and only supports composite and S-Video. If possible, I'd love to eliminate the need to switch inputs on the displays (main projector, lobby TV, overflow projectors, etc.) as well as perform additional switching in the booth; the fewer button presses required, the better. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we do not need matrix/routing capabilities, so I have to imagine there is a way to get all of the switching consolidated in one place. It's the combination of supporting sources and displays that are analog and digital, HD and SD that is making things complicated in my mind.

As always, I can't thank enough all of you who take time out of your day to read, think, and respond as we try to do our best to use technology and media to deliver the message. After all, it's for His glory that we do all that we do.

[tdangelo]

Mjl5007,

Have you considered that the poor DVD playback quality may not be due to composite analog video into the DVD recorder and switcher or the quality limitations of DVD in general but rather may be the quality of your actual DVD recordings? If you playback a commercial DVD movie on the screen (without changing anything else) are you happy with that quality? Or No?

[mjl5007]

Our DVD recordings look acceptable when played back on a computer. I say acceptable because as a technophile I've been on the HD bandwagon at home for quite some time, so watching 480p just doesn't do it for me anymore ... but taking it for what it is, it looks fine for a DVD-quality recording.

On the other hand -- and to answer your question -- commercial DVDs also exhibit some of the same issues that we see with our own recordings.

[tdangelo]

How about http://www.barco.com/en/products-sol...aspx?tab=specs

[petereit]

OK, you're where my church was when I first got interested in building a video ministry. We started with recording services straight to tape on a single JVC GY-HD110U camera.

The first thing we did was run component-video cables from the camera to a DA in the sound booth where we added audio, then ran about a 75-foot component video cable to a DA in our foyer, and ran component video cable to two LCD HDTVs in our foyer. That actually worked VERY well. We got crystal clear HD video and superb audio on both HDTVs.

Our next step was to put 22" HDTVs in our 5 nurseries. At that point, we bought a Gefen 1:10 HDMI distribution hub and switched all the cabling to HDMI. The long-run HDMI cables were EXPENSIVE!! But it worked and everything was good.

Our next step was to add the ability to switch from our computer display to live video on our projection screens, and THAT is where HDMI really started becoming more of a problem than it was worth. We had two HDMI matrix switchers, and about half a dozen equalizer/boosters in the mix just to push the HDMI signal through all of that cabling. The biggest problem was that we now had about 50 individual HDMI connectors at various points in our chain -- and HDMI connectors are non-locking connectors. So we were constantly running around trying to figure out which connector needed to be pushed in where to solve our recurring, intermittent dropping video problems.

Eventually we got so sick and tired of constantly babysitting the HDMI cables/connections that we ripped out ALL of the HDMI. We bought three new JVC HD-SDI cameras, a Panasonic HD-SDI switcher and ran SDI cable everywhere (build-your-own-cables and locking BNC connectors!! JOY!!!) -- all the way to our projectors where we installed SDI-to-HDMI converters. For our nurseries, we installed a QAM modulator that essentially converts HD-SDI to RG6 (same kind of cable your cable-TV uses) and we run that to our foyer HDTVs and to the the nurseries HDTVs. You lose some video quality in the conversion to QAM (no one but us video geeks notices), but you gain a LOT of freedom in how you can run the cabling in that you can just install a cheap cable-TV splitter at each TV and run another length of RG6 to the next TV.

If we had it to do all over again, we would skip the whole HDMI chapter and go straight to SDI/QAM.

[Brad Weber]

Mark's SDI approach has its benefits, but the one catch is that HD-SDI does not support encrypted or protected HD content. If all you ever work with is locally generated and/or original content that may not be a factor, but if the content or a source device ever involve HDCP content protection, you may encounter problems since protected HD digital signal via HDMI, DVI, DisplayPort, etc. to HD-SDI signal conversion is not allowed. This, http://www.doremilabs.com/downloads/...conversion.pdf, provides a good short summary. And while it references primarily Blu-Ray, which is probably the most common HDCP encrypted content source, the same issues can also apply to computers and to iTunes, Netflix, etc. HD content.

Where HDCP rencrypted content is a factor and budget allows, I usually try to implement a hybrid of an HD-SDI based production system and a HDCP compatible, HDMI/HDBaseT based presentation sytem.