Black Magic TV Studio

[mrichards]

We want to purchase a Black Magic TV Studio. We would connect several cameras HDMI. and want to run Pro Presenter through HDMI also. Has anyone run into HDCP problems? If so what solutions is there?

[petereit]

You won't run into any HDCP issues unless you try to pay a protected DVD through your system, which isn't actually a problem -- it's HDCP working exactly as intended.

[sempei13]

The HDMI standard allows for cable runs of up to 10 meters, so I'm wondering how long your cables are. There are other ways to get around it, but know that it's an issue.

I don't know about latency, but that might also be an issue if you're doing IMAG.

Paul

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by petereit

You won't run into any HDCP issues unless you try to pay a protected DVD through your system, which isn't actually a problem -- it's HDCP working exactly as intended.

There can be other factors such as sources that will not output HD content via HDMI or DVI unless they see being connected to an HDCP compliant device. That would not typically apply to cameras but can be relevant to Blu-Ray players, satellite/cable receivers and some computers. The HDCP standards call for the content to enable HDCP when the content calls for it, however nothing prevents device manufacturers from enabling HDCP by default or for other purposes, which is what has happened for some potential source devices.

Possibly a more common related issue in many church applications is running HDMI for the distances from the cameras to the switcher. Also, any computer sources may need to be configured to output a signal compatible with the switcher inputs, which are fairly limited in the resolutions and refresh/scan rates they accept and which for the BlackMagic Television Studio are limited to 'video' resolutions such as 720x480@59.94Hz, 720x576@50Hz, 1280x720@50/59.94Hz or 1920x1080@50/59.94Hz and will not accept common computer graphics resolutions such as 1024x768, 1366x768, 1280x1024, 1280x800, 1600x1200 and so forth.

[mrichards]

Ok i'm a big dummy and know very little as far as the technical side of things.

Here is my planned setup:

1. Panasonic AF-101 (3 via HDMI)
2. Mac Pro w/ (ProPresenter via MiniDVI-HDMI) -this is why i worry about HDCP-

My cables will be long.

Thanks for the help!

Mike

[petereit]

HDCP won't be an issue as long as you don't try to have a "movie night" by sticking a DVD into your Mac and trying to play it through your switcher to your projectors. Generally that's a violation of copyright, which is why Hollywierd came up with HDCP in the first place -- to keep people from violating their fair use rights. In 99% of cases, if HDCP is causing you problems, your probably trying to do something you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

If you want to use a CLIP from a movie for acceptable fair use practices, rip the DVD with a program like Handbrake and cut out just the clip you need with a video editing program, adding fade in/out to black at the head and tail of your clip. Not only does that remove HDCP issues, it also makes for much smoother, more professional transitions in ProPresenter. ProPresenter theoretically CAN play a clip directly from a DVD in your Mac's drive, but it's a big bag of hurt for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the Mac or ProPresenter -- it's the nature of DVD tech itself. Just don't try it. It's part of our standard pre-flight checklist to BEG visiting ministers to send us advance copies of ANY DVD content they even MIGHT think about using so we can rip it and be prepared to do a quick edit for any clips they might want to use.

Running your cameras/ProPresenter live through your switcher to your projectors shouldn't present any HDCP issues at all. If it does, you probably have a poorly-designed something-something in your signal chain that is not correctly implementing the HDCP spec.

But I think your biggest problem is going to be your HDMI cables. HDMI cable ends were designed by demon-engineers from Hell. ANY wiggle or strain AT ALL on the connectors causes them to physically warp out of spec and start randomly dropping video. The connectors don't lock at all so EVERY accidental snag of the cable WILL result in it pulling right out of its socket -- and it doesn't even need to pull all the way out -- just 1mm and you lose the video. The mini- or micro-HDMI connectors on most cameras are many orders of magnitude worse.

Next, you'll lose your Christianity over HDMI's cable length restrictions. Unless you pay HUNDREDS of dollars EACH for the really, REALLY high-quality HDMI cables, you probably will not get reliable video over a 35-foot HDMI cable (the maximum length per the HDMI spec) and you DEFINITELY will not get reliable video over longer lengths. Oh, it will work fine through your evaluation testing and ALL "stress testing" for weeks at a time, then it will choose the most inopportune time right in the middle of Sunday morning service to completely fail. (Remember -- demon-engineers from Hell.) So you'll start chaining shorter lengths of HDMI cable through HDMI repeaters, which multiplies your hardware and connector fail points.

Look at my profile picture. HDMI did that to me. Seriously.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by petereit

HDCP won't be an issue as long as you don't try to have a "movie night" by sticking a DVD into your Mac and trying to play it through your switcher to your projectors.

Unfortunately, there are other considerations. Apple created a significant uproar some time ago when some Macs and also Apple TV boxes enabled HDCP for iTunes content even if you purchased the content and apparently also affecting some SD content, an issue made more significant since their own Apple Cinema Displays would then not display the content you had purchased. Other devices such as Blu-Ray players and some cable/satellite receivers may not output HD content unless connected to an HDCP compliant input, instead outputting either SD or nothing. I believe that Adobe Flash content can enable HDCP and while not included in the final product, a pre-release version of PowerPoint 2010 included the ability for the file to set the flag to enable HDCP, perhaps a harbinger of the direction the application of HDCP could potentially go.

Originally Posted by petereit

HDMI cable ends were designed by demon-engineers from Hell. ANY wiggle or strain AT ALL on the connectors causes them to physically warp out of spec and start randomly dropping video. The connectors don't lock at all so EVERY accidental snag of the cable WILL result in it pulling right out of its socket -- and it doesn't even need to pull all the way out -- just 1mm and you lose the video. The mini- or micro-HDMI connectors on most cameras are many orders of magnitude worse.

There are versions of HDMI connectors available that do provide some strain relief as well as external locking devices. Some professional products using HDMI connections utilize these but most consumer products, and many pro products, apparently avoid the added expense.

[mrichards]

Thanks for all the help. I just went to a product demo. Hooked up my Mac and had EDID issues. But the salesman is going to try some gefen products to see if this fixes the issue. Any how the Atem tv station is pretty cool! What products have you guys used for EDID?

[petereit]

Originally Posted by mrichards

Thanks for all the help. I just went to a product demo. Hooked up my Mac and had EDID issues. But the salesman is going to try some gefen products to see if this fixes the issue. Any how the Atem tv station is pretty cool! What products have you guys used for EDID?

I never experienced any EDID issues. Probably because we started with a Gefen DA.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by mrichards

Thanks for all the help. I just went to a product demo. Hooked up my Mac and had EDID issues. But the salesman is going to try some gefen products to see if this fixes the issue. Any how the Atem tv station is pretty cool! What products have you guys used for EDID?

They're probably looking at http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=8005. EDID can be a pain if the destination device does not properly address it and such products can often help. That Gefen product is HDCP compliant and the BlackMagic is not, so as I understand it you would not want to pass through HDCP, so Dip Switch 4 off.

For those who don't know, EDID is a way for the display or destination device to tell a source device its capabilities in terms of aspect ratio, resolution and other details. When you first turn on a computer or other source device then it automatically communicates with the attached device and identifies the optimal video output settings for that device.

One potential problem is that if the destination device does not support EDID then when the source is turned on it can't identify the attached device and its capabilities and may default to an incompatible video output. Other challenges enter into the picture when dealing with multiple sources and destinations such as via distribution amps or routers. For example, how do you deal with a source connected via a DA to multiple destinations or displays that may all have different characteristics? Or what happens when you take a source routed to one or more destinations and add a new destination? Manufacturers may have different ways of dealing with this in related products but if not properly considered and addressed it can be a real problem.

I was in a class not long ago where they showed a case where they had purchased new displays and found themselves always having to force the attached computers to the right settings. Turns out that the display manufacturer had apparently inadvertently produced the new product with the EDID firmware from the product it replaced with the result that the display would identify itself as being a different aspect ratio and resolution than it actually was.

[petereit]

The Gefen HDMI 1:10 DA we use clones the EDID of the display connected to port 1. We plugged one of our HDTVs into port 1, hit the "Clone EDID" button and have never had problems.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by petereit

The Gefen HDMI 1:10 DA we use clones the EDID of the display connected to port 1. We plugged one of our HDTVs into port 1, hit the "Clone EDID" button and have never had problems.

Many products do something similar and it can work very well, at least as long as all the displays accept the signal that results. The challenge comes when you have to coordinate multiple displays that have varying compatible inputs.

I had one small project with a similar DA feeding a projector and plasma display. If you used the projector to set the DA's EDID it would select a resolution that the plasma would not display. And vice versa if you used the plasma to set the EDID. That left two choices. One was to manually set the attached device output to something that worked, which worked fine if you knew what you were doing but was too technical for the users with laptops that were the most likely to use the system. The other option was to find a device that would allow setting the EDID for the DA input to something that was compatible with both of the installed displays. There are devices made for just that purpose but in this case we simply looked up the compatible inputs for both the projector and flat panel, identified those common to both, selected the one we thought would work best and then found a device with that native aspect ratio, resolution and refresh rate and used it to set the EDID. Not optimal, but it worked.