Audit Specs for new Projector System

[xdx]

I am not a Projection Professional and wanted to get some more eyes and opinions on this proposal from our consultant.

New Construction
Seating: 1500
Screens: 2 RP 16' Width 4:3
Room Projectors: SANYO PLC-XP55L : Short Throw Lens
Screen Type: DALITE DASNAP
Screen Distance from Front Row: 30'
Screen Distance from Back Row: 130'
Screens are angled due to 240 degree seating
Amp: FSR RGB-4 VGA AMPLIFIER
Confidence(Choir) Projector:SANYO MODEL PLC-XP55

I had read some iffy comments on the Sanyo's and I wanted to make sure spending a little more somewhere wouldn't benefit us. Also, the last part of this system that is missing is a Switcher/Scaler. We have ocassional DVD/VHS Clips and 100% Media Shout for all parts of the worship service. Our new facility is running a TV ministry as well and I am planning on sending a digital(firewire) feed to them and a S-Video feed to the projection area from all 3 XL2's. I need a good quality switcher/sclaer that will allow me to switch seamlessly between feeds as wel as the ability to layer the PC lyrics(on black background of course) over the video feeds for text over IMAG. The only component that my consultant has found is the Folsom Research Encore for $19K. I was thinking it could be done for about $10K but I may be mistaken.

Any help is very greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
D

[[Admin] PHugger]

First off - how did you determine what projector model (brightness) you needed? This can be calculated and if your consultant is worth his salt he should know this.

A switching scaler makes a huge difference in how smoothly your service will run. The quality of the scaler also makes a visible difference when you are projecting low res video (camera, dvd, vhs). We have a couple of FSR (same as Folsom) scalers at my church. We are extremely happy with them.

Check out this FORMAT CONCERSION BUYERS GUIDE.




PCH

A few questions need to be answered before we can make good comments on your post.

1. How far away from the screens are the projectors going to be mounted? This will help determine the lens requirements to fill the screens.

2. Why are you going with 4:3 format? In a very short time, 16:9 will become the standard.

3. What are you going to display on the screens? Just sermon notes and song lyrics? If you plan on anything more than one computer (Like DVD, VHS tape, a live camera), then you definately will want a scaler switch. The number of video sources that you will have will determine what device will best suit your needs.

4. Will the confidence monitor screen always show the same image as that on the main screens? If not, then you will either need a matrix switch or a separate scaler switch for the confidence monitor screen and the main screens.

5. Has the consultant measured the ambiant light levels at each screen in the sanctuary? Has this been factored included in the calculation of your projector brightness? Are the light levels at each screen controlable? Can it be reduced easily?

6. Do you have any control on the lighting (faders) in the room?

I hope that the consultant has taken all of this into consideration. If not, you may want to seek advice from another consultant.

[xdx]

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

1. How far away from the screens are the projectors going to be mounted? This will help determine the lens requirements to fill the screens.

16'

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

2. Why are you going with 4:3 format? In a very short time, 16:9 will become the standard.

Budget, and due to the layout of the room. Because of the walls the screens are on, I can't go bigger than 16' and I needed size because of distance from the back row. 9' just looked to short from the back of the sancturary. We were told from several sources that the screens should actually be 20' due to the size of the room.

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

3. What are you going to display on the screens? Just sermon notes and song lyrics? If you plan on anything more than one computer (Like DVD, VHS tape, a live camera), then you definately will want a scaler switch. The number of video sources that you will have will determine what device will best suit your needs.

IMAG because of seating degree, video backgrounds behind lyrics, Lyrics over IMAG and of course, standard videos form DVD/VHS. My consultant has mentioned the OMNI but I haven't been able to thoroughly inspect it to verify that it will do everything we need it to. Any suggestions?

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

4. Will the confidence monitor screen always show the same image as that on the main screens? If not, then you will either need a matrix switch or a separate scaler switch for the confidence monitor screen and the main screens.

This is the main reason for the Omni to let us have the ability to do separate feeds. We won't always do separate feeds but it may end up that we do it more frequently than we have planned.

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

5. Has the consultant measured the ambiant light levels at each screen in the sanctuary? Has this been factored included in the calculation of your projector brightness? Are the light levels at each screen controlable? Can it be reduced easily?

All room lighting is controlled via the DMX lighting board. There is no external lighting in the sanctuary.

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

6. Do you have any control on the lighting (faders) in the room?

Same as above

Originally Posted by Glenn DeYoung

I hope that the consultant has taken all of this into consideration. If not, you may want to seek advice from another consultant.

Do you feel that the projectors are adequate? I have no preference in a specific brand as far as that is concerned.

Thanks for you help,
D

[[Admin] PHugger]

All of these factors can be calculated - your consultant should have done this for you.

The required screen size can be determined with some degree of certainty. Screen size should not be left up to an opinion (it looks good).

Determine screen size
Measure the distance from the screen to the furthest seat in line-of-sight. If the majority of the content is video, divide that number (the distance) by 8. This will yield the screen height. Remember that this is just one of many possible formats that will determine which number to achieve the screen height.

Next, measure the distance from the screen to the closest audience seat that is in line-of-sight to that screen. The screen should be no taller than twice that distance. Example - 6' tall = 12' away for closest viewer. This isn’t always possible, but it is preferable. Remember, the furthest viewers take priority, as it is better for the screen to be “too big” for those close than “too small” for those in the back.

The screen height will be the same if the aspect ratio is 4:3 or 16:9 as only the width is different (if done correctly, anyway). This is not the same as “letterboxing” a 4:3 image, so make sure you’re either using 4:3 or 16:9 – not letterbox.

The projector lense can be determined as well

Using Ratios to Select the Correct LCD Lens
When using ratios to select a lens, you must consider the screen width and the projection distance to the screen. The formula is distance/width. For example, if you had a 10' wide screen and a projection distance of 10', you would require a lens with a 1:1 ratio. If your distance changed to 20', you would then require a lens with a 2:1 ratio. However, due to the different LCD panel sizes, the actual focal length of the required lens would be different for each panel size, even though the ratio would remain the same. See the chart HERE.

Finally the brightness (lumens) of your projector can also be determined

Determine square footage of the screen surface
Take the screen height (in feet) and multiply it by the screen width (in
feet). Ex. 6' x 8' = 48 sq. ft.

Multiply the square footage of the screen by 20 (ANSI says 18 + or – 2, so we use 20).
Example - 20 (ANSI lumens per sq. ft. minimum) multiplied by 48 (sq. ft.) = 960 projected lumens.

960 lumens isn’t hard to find in a projector by today’s standards. But before you get too excited, remember that ANSI specifies that 18 (+ or - 2) is the acceptable number. This is assuming NO light is hitting the screen. Pitch black area. Dark. No light. Nada.

Our next measurement is at the screen area itself - the amount of foot-candles of light striking the screen surface from lights, windows, etcetera using a light meter.

Let's assume we measure 8 foot-candles striking the screen surface. We now take our number ( and multiply it by 5 (our next formula). The answer? 40, of course.

That (40) is the number we must now reach to have adequate lumens being
projected onto the screen surface. In other words, we must project at least 40 lumens per square foot onto the screen to over come 8 foot candles of light on a 6’ x 8’ screen.

So, going back to our first example, we have 48 sq. ft. of screen area. We multiply 48 by the new 40 lumens per sq. ft. number to get 1,920 lumens.

Therefore, assuming no screen gain, we will need nearly 2,000 lumens projected onto the screen surface from the projector in order to overcome ambient light.

I agree with Glenn - go 16:9 if you can. Talk to your consultant about this.




Best regards,
PCH

[kbob]

Thanks, that puts everything in one place. We're in the process of upgrading our 800 lumens projector as well. That helps bolster the arguments significantly.

[Tim Simms]

Out of curiosity, how large is the room?

Originally Posted by xdx

I am not a Projection Professional and wanted to get some more eyes and opinions on this proposal from our consultant.

New Construction
Seating: 1500
Screens: 2 RP 16' Width 4:3
Room Projectors: SANYO PLC-XP55L : Short Throw Lens
Screen Type: DALITE DASNAP
Screen Distance from Front Row: 30'
Screen Distance from Back Row: 130'
Screens are angled due to 240 degree seating
Amp: FSR RGB-4 VGA AMPLIFIER
Confidence(Choir) Projector:SANYO MODEL PLC-XP55

I had read some iffy comments on the Sanyo's and I wanted to make sure spending a little more somewhere wouldn't benefit us. Also, the last part of this system that is missing is a Switcher/Scaler. We have ocassional DVD/VHS Clips and 100% Media Shout for all parts of the worship service. Our new facility is running a TV ministry as well and I am planning on sending a digital(firewire) feed to them and a S-Video feed to the projection area from all 3 XL2's. I need a good quality switcher/sclaer that will allow me to switch seamlessly between feeds as wel as the ability to layer the PC lyrics(on black background of course) over the video feeds for text over IMAG. The only component that my consultant has found is the Folsom Research Encore for $19K. I was thinking it could be done for about $10K but I may be mistaken.

Any help is very greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
D

I know you have a building designed already, but in general I'll just throw out my beef/rant for the day. If media has become an integeral aspect of ministry in a building why is it left to where it will fit in and how much of it will fit in? Why do the designers, or better, why do the church committees not seek out media specs that are required before even talking to an architect? Why not tell the architect we need a church, it needs x, y, z in the sanctuary. The pulpit could be x, the lighting could be y and z could be the media, you get the idea. Then the church is not left with fitting in what will just barely work for screen placement and sizing, and a good control area and sizing can also be included right from the get go.

The day is fast approaching when 16:9 will be here in full swing. Unless you are of the opinion the rapture will be taking place in the next couple years I would advise atleast re-assessing going 16:9. Our laptops today are already moving rapidly away from 4:3, our better televisions are, most all DVD's are. The basic projectors have had some form of wide option for several years now. I just think in a nice new building it would be advisable to seriously consider. What is the difference in cost between the correctly sized 4:3 screen vrs the correctly sized 16:9 vrs the overall cost of the building project. There are other considerations to 16:9 too but in the big scheme what does it do to the bottom line vrs having to redo it in short order?

[G-2]

XDX,
As FSR is a technology partner with Folsom Research, (we manufacturer and co-design products together,) there is a major problem here that may affect the budget of this system.
The cost of the Encore, shown last week at the NSCA show in Orlando as the FSR Eagle 300 series, is a three part system. A controller, processor and a matrix is required. The budget figure you quoted is not the entire system. It is under list price for the Seamless Switcher Processor only.
They may have the Encore/Eagle 300 system on separate line items on the budget, but I wanted you to be sure they have not left anything out on your system.

Now that said, you are looking at the most incredible switcher technology available today. I know it is against the rules for us guys, but I am going to even read the manual on this system! With the ability to add 6 layers of images on one display, it is going to give us more flexibility than we have ever had with a seamless switcher.
Sorry about the rant, I am still excited from showing this system last week.

Thank you all for serving Jesus Christ,
G-2

[G-2]

Jnorth,
Tell it brother! I agree on your outlook that a lot of architects have on design! They make a pretty room with 7 seconds of reverb, support columns where screens should be and then tell us to make it work.
FSR is taking a new approach and teaching classes to architects to try to let them see the other side of the media issues.
Some food for thought on 16:9 projection today; there are less than 5 true 16:9 native projectors available today and the cost are big dollars per lumen output! The existing projectors available today will turn off some of the pixels on the 4:3 display to give you a 16:9 image. But remember that you will be turning off about 30 percent of your light output so the will not be as bright. I am not saying to not consider 16:9! I only want you to be aware of this transition time of the 4:3 to 16:9 size screens. I love the fact that you can put so much more of the lyrics on the screen! We can display it like we sing it.

BTX,
I just saw the mention of the FSR Omni, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have if you are comfortable with that, or I can send you contact names for church users, if you like.
By the way, The FSR S-2 that was recently discontinued is almost identical to the Omni-Navigator. I know several of our CM brothers on this forum use the S-2. They will tell it like it is, good or bad!!!

I love my Churchmedia .net!!!

Thank you all for serving,
G-2

[xdx]

Originally Posted by Glenn Collinge

I just saw the mention of the FSR Omni, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have if you are comfortable with that, or I can send you contact names for church users, if you like. By the way, The FSR S-2 that was recently discontinued is almost identical to the Omni-Navigator. I know several of our CM brothers on this forum use the S-2. They will tell it like it is, good or bad!!!

Glenn,
I am looking for a solution that can manage and layer (at least) three S-Video feeds, 1 VGA, and either an additional S-Video feed or Component for the DVD/VCR. We will have a third confidence screen that will basicly be the VGA feed without the additional video layering. Do you feel that the Omni/Omni-Navigator is adequate for this type of solution or do you have an additional alternative. I believe that while the Encore is amazing, it is probably a little overkill for our uses.

Let me know what you think,
D