LED Vs. Traditional

[pkooistra]

I know very little about lights... and so I am needing to trust others in this field.

I have had 2 different guys give me drastically different ideas of what we should put in our worship space (rented Gym) I am at a real loss of what system is going to serve us better. Stage is 20 x 12 space.

Attached are the 2 quotes. One from a local guy and one from Portland (about 3 hours away) The benefit of the local guys is He is here in town and willing to help with install and programming. The local guys says that 4 LED's are super powerful will be enough to cover our small stage

Thoughts?

4 Led Elation Elar par 108 Vs. 4 Source fours

Thanks

[andrewf]

My limited knowledge of lighting here tells me you dont have an apples to apples comparision here.

Your one vendor is including traditional theatrical fixtures (source 4) which I am guessing to be used for a center speaking position. (GOOD)

The rest appear to be for washing the stage with light.

The other vendor, is only selling you LED wash fixtures, and your ability to adjust and balance the light, is going to be a challenge.

This is all less of an issue, if you have NO plans for imag.

I'd lean towards the HollyWood lights option....only on grounds of fixtures.

[tdangelo]

Phil,

When all is said and done what are you trying to accomplish? Where is your expectation level?

Do you have any examples or photo of what you are going for?

Thanks.

[pkooistra]

I am just trying to get some lighting on the stage... and try to stay under $5000. This is just a package to get us started and hopefully we can add things to it later (stage washes, moving lights, etc.) I want to have some color for our worship team and clean light for our preaching. We do record our sermons, but we don't do any imag in the service.
Does that help?

[Esoteric]

What kind of throw are doing for a 10 degree beam angle on that ELAR covering a 20x12 stage????

NO WAY are the ELARs powerful enough to do that, especially not for video.

In other news, some of those prices are outrageous. IMHO those NSI packs are junk. Most of those are only rated to 15A total. So unless you are using the 575W source 4's you don't have enough power. Plus NSI gear does not play well with anything else, so get ready to trash it when you want to upgrade.

Leprechaun makes a much better dimmer pack if you want it.

Those Elations are pretty expensive.

I don't get a 16 channel console with 8 channels of dimming and at least 12 channels of LED control.

Those cables and barn doors are also pretty high priced.

[Les]

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of either one - They are both incomplete and on one you're not getting decent pricing... You're just getting MAP, which if you develop a relationship with a dealer they should have better pricing. My guess is the 2nd one (phil) is not an authorized distributor or reseller for the products but simply buying them at a slight discount and charging you MAP.

For the first quote (V-2) there seem to be some things missing -
1) They list the ST-132 stands (which are great) but they don't list any sort of hardware to hang the lights from. These don't come with a crossbar standard, it's a separate part number. I would verify the crossbars to hang the lights from are included.
2) In order to use those NSI power packs with 750W lamps you have to run them in 2 channel mode (they only have 1, 2 or 4 channel mode options). They have a MAX of 1200 per channel in that mode. So, you only have 4 dimmer channels but 6 lights. They could be running the Parnell's with 575's I guess and putting 2 on one channel, but that would need to be clarified.
3) They have spec'ed 2x25' Edison power cords - They need to be SO cable (SEOW, SOOW, etc). Is 25' long enough? Is there enough power nearby to handle this load? This stuff wouldn't be in the bid, but should be known before purchase.
4) 4 Tri Taps? For what?
5) 2 100' DMX - I assume one to each stand? I also assume they plan on putting the Pars on the front positions? Can you fit that many lights on the (non-existent) lighting bar?
6) Are the LED's really going on the front positions? Why? They will be too far out and competing with the front light to do any good.
7) Board is not good for controlling LED's, no expansion room, too basic for any sort of future growth as it would barely, kinda, maybe, work for what you would currently have.

2nd Quote:
1) How is the truss going to hold itself in the air? Magic fairies holding it up? Why do you even need truss?
2) Cabling is spelled cabeling (that would make it an instant no-go in my book, you can't bother to check spelling?)
3) The extension cords are not specified in length nor type (again, needs to be SO type)
4) The DMX cable isn't specified (what lengths, is it even the right lengths?)

I think the first quote is more polished and a little more thought out.

Off the cuff, without all the details here is my basic system I would look at starting with. This is a good starter portable setup in my mind.

3x Global Truss ST-132 (2 for front light, 1 for backlight)
4-6 Blizzard Rocklite AW for front lights (they have optional lens kits, pick the one that best suits your positioning and distance.)
4-6 Blizzard Rocklite RGBAW for Backlight (again, optional lens kits are available)
250' Spool of 12/3 SOOW cable with appropriate cable ends to build my own extension cords as needed
500' spool of stranded Cat5e and some XLR ends, build my own DMX Cable (would prefer the ruggedized Cat5)
1 Netbook running MagicQ PC
1 Enttec DMX Pro

Hopefully Mike or Wayne (or both) will chime in, they are better with this stuff than me. HA! Speaking of Mike, just noticed he beat me to it!

[pkooistra]

Hmmm... Anyone know a trusted lighting person in Bend Oregon I am at such a loss with all of this

[pkooistra]

I am pretty sure he is a dealer? audiovisionsplus.com

I know he does a lot of stuff in Bend

[Esoteric]

Thanks Les. I had some of the same issues as you as well.

I am also launching my own line of LED fixtures. On par (no pun) with Elation/Chauvet/Blizzard.

And CAT5 is not DMX compliant unless it is run in grounded conduit. But DMX cables are cheap enough.

[Esoteric]

I didnt even comment on the lack of cabling. *lol*

[Les]

Originally Posted by pkooistra

I am pretty sure he is a dealer? audiovisionsplus.com

I know he does a lot of stuff in Bend

Well, you can sell a lot of gear and still not be an authorized reseller/distributor. I checked out for authorized dealers on Elation's site and didn't see them.

Not saying they are not, but they could be like me, a wholesaler. I buy equipment from an authorized dealer at a good price (wholesale). But, I typically only use that account for my own rental systems and conveinence items that I stock for churches (cables, stands, DI's, hard-wired mics). Basically the stuff that I can personally afford to warranty if something goes wrong. ie, if a cable goes bad or an SM58 goes out then I can replace it out of my own pocket.

But, on most electronics equipment and purchases I typically refer the customer to the direct authorized dealer that I've been working with and have a good relationship with - That way there is no questions on warranty and the customer gets the absolute best price.

If it were me I'd find out, ask them (both of them) if they are an authorized Dealer or not. If not, I would source the equipment from somewhere else.

[Les]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

And CAT5 is not DMX compliant unless it is run in grounded conduit. But DMX cables are cheap enough.

Technically per the standard? No, it's not "compliant". For portable applications I wouldn't hesitate to use it and I don't think anyone would experience any problems.

It seems to me that it's not a performance issue as the requirement for CAT5e being in conduit but a durability and grounding issue.

But, hey, buy some "real" DMX cable if need be. Not too much more expensive, just saying what I would use.

BTW - We need to get a demo going on those fixtures of yours. Let me know when you're going to have them out somewhere and Wayne and I will make a trip up your way.