Sanctuary Lighting woes

[krisnrg]

Hey guys first off I wanna say im not a lighting expert and I need help.

Our sanctuary setup needs help specially now that we are using cameras and trying to record the services.

Basically the lighting on stage isn't even, there isn't enough light, the front lights are too far back (they get into people eyes, as a result they always want to dim them), there is not back lighting to provide rim light, there isn't enough wash on the walls to provide nice pleasant color, no light effects( something subtle perhaps?)

I have attached a picture of the sanctuary. What I'm looking for are ideas...

Some of them are easily fixed I guess but i'm sure you guys have advice I haven't thought of.

The Plan:
Change all incandescent par 64s to LED lights
Move the front lights forward to an angle where they don't bother people
Put some of the new LEDs as back light to provide rim light
Get something to provide wash on the walls
light up the stone arcs

Questions:
I'm not sure how to actually position the back lights.
There are only six par cans up now in the front, Not sure if that's right.
Besides the middle projector there are 2 more. One on each side nears the walls. Projected directly on the walls. Do they get in the way?


THanks for the help

[Esoteric]

It appears you are on the right track.

Keep the PAR64's for your front wash. And get some barn doors to be able to control the splash more. Move the front light parts to a 45 degree vertical angle or higher (you can go as high as 60 without much difference). Get the spill off that back wall.

Move your color wash lights to being down light or up light and change them to LEDs. Those bricks will be beautiful with LED up or down lights on them.

Do something to break up that white wall. I prefer projection, but if that is not in your budget, then a couple of ERS units with gobos in them will at least give it a little texture.

Take all the leftover PARs and use them as back light (to make the pastor pop against the background).

If you can add a few fresnels or ERS units for the piano/choir/worship leader during worship.

I might do a quick rendering later and throw it up to give you some ideas.

Mike

[krisnrg]

Thanks for your reply.

Is there any specific reason why you suggest to keep the par64s?

I submitted the LED lights purchase as an energy savings deal.
So they'll wonder why I decided to keep them.

[mstone133]

@mike

Wouldn't a 60 degree angle cause problems with eye shadows, especially on camera? I've always heard that 45/22 were the angles of choice for visual/camera lighting, but improvements in cameras have led to better performance at steeper angles.

When I moved to my new church, the front lighting bar position resulted in a little over 60 degree angle to the nearest performer and eye shadowing was noticeable without a camera. On camera, the eyes were completely black.

I moved the bar position to a 45 degree angle to eliminate these problems.

[Esoteric]

Let me clarify a couple of things.

1. I prefer incandescent back lighting for video purposes. Most churches can not afford bright enough LEDs to overcome front light and really register on video during the sermon (for this I would normally recommend 8W LED units). LEDs can be used, but generally PARs are the way to go. Why add lights if no one is ever going to see them?

2. In a church sanctuary, switching to LED lighting is not going to save you much on your electric bill. One thing I am with my clients is honest, even if it were to cost me the occasional sale. So being totally transparent, when you look at the average power usage of a church sanctuary you will see very little savings from switching from incandescent to LED. The real savings are in lamps, but it will take the church decades to overcome the initial cost of the equipment and start to make money. It will look much better, but it isn't going to save you much money.

3. On the front light angle issue, here is my view. Keep in mind YMMV.
Of course the closer to horizontal you get, the better. In an ideal world (as far as eyes are concerned), we would put the lights on a 0 degree angle and use our light knife to cut away the spill. Of course, that would also leave the face looking a little flat, and the whole scene would look a little off to our eyes (because we are used to the sun being overhead except in certain situations). So, the 45 degree compromise is ideal. All the way down to 25 degrees (22 would be fine too, but 25 was the rule I was taught) is acceptable. Now on video, I like to stick as close to 45 as possible. But I have had success up to 60 degrees depending on the subject (posture, facial features, etc) but again YMMV.

Now of course we come to the real world, where people don't like to have "light in their eyes". You have two options. Either tell them to "live with it" (this usually doesn't go over very well) or you move the angle up and sometimes as little as 5 degrees will help fix the issue.

Now that I look at it again, it seems that the existing front lights might be lower than 45 degrees (it is hard to tell from those pics) so perhaps an increase to 45 might fix the issue.

Of course I have gotten complaints from pastors at 45 degrees.

YMMV

Mike

[mstone133]

First, sorry for the long post...

Why and when are the people complaining about the front lights? I worked with a keyboardist that refused to allow a front light to shine on her. Turns out, she couldn't read her music because of shadows from the light. A back light was adjusted and the issue was resolved. Find out which lights are causing issues and/or which light cues cause problems.

Adjusting the focus of the lights and/or cue levels may help with this issue and with the problem of uneven lighting. It looks like the area behind the podium is much brighter than areas around it, is the speaker moving out of the brightly lit area?

It looks like you could easily move the front lights to two positions on either side of the stage versus the single position straight in front of the stage in addition to moving them foward. Moving the lights to 45 degrees up and 45 degrees to the sides should help as it avoids having people looking directly at the light. Adding a gel can also help to make the lighting more tolerable.

When choosing how far foward the lights can be moved, carefully consider how mobile the speaker will be. A steep lighting angle is less tolerant of movement toward the light than flatter lights. If lighting is focused on a speaker at the podium, and that person steps in front of the podium during the talk (and maybe walks all the way to the stage edge), the lighting angle can change significantly.

After you have done everything reasonable to resolve the "the light is too bright issue" and still have complaints...I have found that stage performers (and even pastors) will tolerate a lot if they understand why it's being done. I once showed my pastor a picture taken of him at the podium with too little front light and asked if we should put that photo on a bulletin board. After that, no more fuss about lighting.

Finally, get someone like Mike Campbell involved in the project as early as possible. Having a lighting expert with church experience involved as early as possible will save you money, time, and lots of heartburn.

[Esoteric]

Moving the lights out certainly helps. But it can cause spill issues and also it requires more units to cover the same area. These things may or may not be problems. I can't tell from those pictures and without actual space measurements.

Also, yes you lose depth as your front light angle gets higher. This is okay for "crabs" (pastors that walk back and forth) but is a problem for "bobbers" (pastors that walk back and forth). Only you know your pastor (in a public service announcement voice).

Mike

[Steve Vanciel]

Previous comments all very good but I'm wondering - the photos you attached looked remarkably good. Question: is it the video cameras that can't cope? Maybe investing some of your money in better cameras would help?

SteveV

[Esoteric]

I wouldn't say good as much as I would bright Steve. But I see what you are saying.

Mike

[mstone133]

The OP asked 3 questions that haven't been directly addressed yet:

1) Backlight position

In general, backlights are directly behind the subject at a steep angle. Do not allow the lights to shine into the audience.

2) Six front lights adequate?

It's not really possible to address this question from the photos, a lot of factors are involved.

3) Are the side projectors in the way?

I don't see why any lighting design couldn't incorporate and even be enhanced by these fancy lights. Hard to tell where they were located/aimed from the photos.

Please insert the standard monologue about an experienced consultant. From the photos, it looks like you have a lot of existing equipment that just needs to be repositioned/adjusted to yield better results for the stage lighting. That would save a lot of money that could be used for stage color wash and to make that back wall shine.

[krisnrg]

Yes the pictures look remarkably good because they were shot at f3.5 but with a tripod and a long exposure.

The cameras I have out back are the Sony pd170 (SD) and the JVC HU250 (HD).

Camera wise the problem is that the lighting is very uneven. And I am needing to boost up the gain anywhere from 6db to 9db. Even at f2 apertures. Also the video is too flat. Our Pastor does tend to walk back and forth a lot and I don't wanna be adjusting the iris to compensate that much.

As far as keeping the par64s I think you guys are right. I still haven't gotten into the throw of the LED lights we are looking at. Or their lux/lumen ratings. From what I've heard here and from Roger a production guy that is currently helping us put in out new sound system pars need to stay up front.

So LED will now be used for wash lighting and back lighting. The problem here now is that they installed some florescent lighting that they are actually using in the sanctuary, during service, along with the incandescent lights.

I suggested they not do this. They did so for energy saving reason as well. Now If I pan over to the congregation they look green/blue. That is the other problem I am running into. I need to get them to not use those lights. They also did it because the incandescent lights that you see (the recessed ones) weren't giving enough output and it was too dark. I'm not sure what to do to switch back...

As far LED's I really thought they would save on energy.

[RickR]

Most churches don't use their sanctuarys enough to really save on electricity.

Look into changing the fluorescent lamps. Really good color tubes are available (most TV studios are FL these days) but very pricey. Make sure yours are at least 80CRI and around 3000K CCT. Matching the white balance of the stage and house is critical.