House lights

[mlanahan]

Hi everyone

I am loking for a way to control our 4 1000 watt house light fixtures. I want them to be dimmable but I do not want them to go through our board ( we use dimmer packs and I don't like the overall reliability in a room that could be blacked out with no lights). I am looking for some type of master fader that can handel the 4000w(or four 1000w capable fader ) to put next to our light board. Do you have any ideas?Thanks
Mike

[waynehoskins]

If you want reliability, the old radial rheostats off the old "piano boards" will handle the power and live forever. Of course, you've got 40A of 120 right at your fingertips there too... get too close to the terminal and get a nice zing.

Question 1: What's your existing board?

I presume from context that you're looking for portable dimming rather than an install rack solution.

Strand make a CD80 Single, which I think is a full 2.4 standalone that can talk DMX and also has a handle on its front. Two of those will do.

You could also run 0-10 analog to something like an old CD80 12-pack. It's analog so there's no board to die, and CD80s have been around forever.

When you start talking about more than 2.4K, you're getting into pretty heavy territory.

You could also get an architectural rack, but that's money.

Tell us more about your setup, what else you have lighting/electricity-wise, whether you're permanent or portable, that sort of thing .. and also the general ballpark of budget you have to throw at it .. if your budget is less than 1K, for example, it won't do me any good to tell you to get a Sensor rack.

[mlanahan]

Hi everyone,
here is a little more info:
we purchased a church building from a church that was shutting down.
Here are some pre renovation pics (two of the lights are coming down because that is where new speakers will be flown.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8236114@N07

Our budjet is very small (12,000 for lighting video and sound) so a solution that is is not very expensive would be perfered.

Because of our low budget, I had to do some things I would rather not do. We ordered an nsi 16/32 board, 12 par 64's and 4 source 4 elipsoidals. All are run off dimmer packs.

I would rather not run house lights off the dimmer packs and a dimmer rack is way over our budget. Our room can be blacked out so if you blow a fuse an a dimmer pack it could be chaos.

Right now the house lights are run off breakers in a panel on the main floor. What I am probably looking for is something like you would use on your recessed lights in your house but at industrial strength.

It will mainly be used to fade lights in and out for drama and video.

Does anyone know of anything like this?
Thanks
Mike

[waynehoskins]

Yeah, they don't make that. It ain't all that safe to have 4K running through the knob at your fingertips. If nothing else, that would require a killer heatsink and would still get pretty toasty. Goodness, even the old Lutron 2Ks get hot and are big.

Plus, there's the whole EMI noise issue. Old Lutrons are moderately clean, but the closer the dimmer is to the audio and video stuff the greater the induction you'll get.

If you're dead set on it not being an electronic dimmer, I'm thinking it's radial rheostat .. I don't know if those old things are up to code any more .. we used to have a few of those .. what were they, 50 amp or 60 amp jobs, back in college .. they had come out of a piano board at some time in a previous life and were in homasote and plywood enclosures. Little beasts just worked, but they're probably not up to code for anything remotely permanent.

The largest Lutron dimmer I know of is a 2K, but I wouldn't use one of those if I could avoid it. It's still too much current running through the knob at your fingertips.

[waynehoskins]

Oh, there was a church in Dallas that had remote houselight dimming way back in the fifties. In the basement they had a bunch of huge autotransformers or variacs (the lots-of-current kind) all tied to a motor drive, and pressing the Up or Down button would turn the motor the appropriate direction to turn the autotransformers the right direction. Beast of a thing, from what I understand.

I think what you need is an architectural rack. It's the right way to do it.

[Steve Vanciel]

Originally Posted by mlanahan

I am loking for a way to control our 4 1000 watt house light fixtures. I want them to be dimmable but I do not want them to go through our board ( we use dimmer packs and I don't like the overall reliability in a room that could be blacked out with no lights). I am looking for some type of master fader that can handel the 4000w(or four 1000w capable fader ) to put next to our light board. Do you have any ideas?

Mike,

Two thoughts:
First, since the house lights are permanent fixtures, any wiring modifications will need to conform to your local electrical code. Best to consult with a locally licensed electrical contractor for correct compliance methods.
Second, there are small, DMX controllable, install dimmers on the market that could handle the fixture load and still be activated by your regular console. If you want the capability to turn the house lights on/off without the console, there are a number of small, electrical switch box controllers that have a few faders and put out DMX as well.

A good theatrical vendor in your area can show you samples to chose from.

SteveV
Orlando, FL

[Steve Vanciel]

Originally Posted by mlanahan

Here are some pre renovation pics (two of the lights are coming down because that is where new speakers will be flown.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8236114@N07

Mike,

I went to look at the house lights to confirm that they were permanent fixtures. But I also noticed the photos of the loudspeaker rigging. May I ask if this was done in-house or by an outside contractor? The type of hardware used does not appear to be of an appropriate design or rating for this application.

Loudspeakers are a dynamic load and are typically quite heavy. If a cabinet was not designed by the manufacturer to be flown, as indicated by rated hardware for that purpose, it is probably unsafe to fly it. There are a lot of internal structural issues that have to be addressed in order to fly a speaker cabinet safety. I looked at the Carvin web site and they do not list a TR1502 model. The LSX1503 that they show is NOT built to be flown. It is designed to be mounted on a pole. The photo of your speakers appears to show a pole socket on the bottom. The angle iron and all-thread hanger also suggests that there is no built in rigging points.

You may have some serious liability issues here.
Your powers-that-be should be strongly encouraged to seek professional rigging assistance today or attorneys tomorrow.
Faith in God is good, but He also expects prudence on our part.

SteveV
Orlando, FL

[bpalermini]

I'm not a lighting guy but it seems to me like you could connect the house to the board and install a couple of emergency lights that are controlled by a switch in the booth or in more than one location for less than putting in a separate system. Just a thought.

[waynehoskins]

By the way, while we're talking about temporary application stuff (more so on another thread than this one), I believe truss packs are specified to be for temporary usage only .. Steve would be the expert on this one .. but if you have a permanent install with truss packs, I think that's a no-no as well.

And on rigging, you mention you're getting some PARs and some S4s .. where are they going to go? Best get a qualified rigger in there for rigging the position(s) and for the loudspeakers.

Just a thought.

Oh, I just went to check the rigging photos and, holy crap, Steve's right! That ain't the right way to rig. Among other things, the Crosbies ain't on the right directions. And I couldn't see what the points actually tie to on the top of the array, but from how it looks there's no way that's good.

Get a rigger in there, stat.

[mlanahan]

The speakers are being taken down this week (before our first service). This riging was done by a previous church at this location and your right, it is horrible. The gc is rigging our lighting points and the rigging is actually overkill (at my request). A master electrician is doing all the electrical. The pictures you are seeing are all pre-renovation. Our target date is to finish by 4-11 and have our first service on 4-13. We were meeting in a cafeteria with no long term contract and this property just fell into our lap for dirt cheap (amazing how that happens).

This is a 3 1/2 to 4 year instal. because of this, they did not want to spend the money on rack mount dimmers. We have most of our new land paid for. Next year we are going to start working with consultants on the new facility and doing things without rackmount dimmers at that point would be insane.

Thanks For your help
Mike

[yagabu]

Our church has some old chandaleer light fixtures, each fixture holds 10 bulbs, each at 100w. 2 rows of them 3 chandaleers each and one with a row of 2, all rows are controlled by 3 dimmers. These dimmers ahve heat sinks and do get very hot. An electrician we had come in for a estimate for some work couldn't believe that the dimmers havent burnt the church down yet. If we had the money we would have them moved to our DMX lighting controler with a seperate channel for each chandeleer.

Just thought I would not recommend that kinda application for dimmers.

Greg

[D.R.HADDOCK]

Properly designed and properly fitted dimmers are safe and reliable.
Sounds like the electricain has had no experience with large dimming systems.

My dimmers are running at 50a per phase, and they only get barely warm because they where properly installed and are well ventilated.
They are not new racks they are 20 years old.
But my point is large dimmers are safe provided they are installed properly.
And powered by an electricain who has experience with large dimming systems.

And I recently saw a 5000w dimmer on e bay, it sold for 35 dollars.

Use of large rheostats is most likely to be frowned upon by electrical safety authorities, due to the obvious dangers.



Just thought I would not recommend that kinda application for dimmers.

Greg[/quote]