Just a vent

[Esoteric]

So..... Forgive me a moment, but how many times does it take an organization to learn a lesson? I have a client, who I have worked with on several projects. They always bring me in after the fact, when someone else has messed the project u beyond recognition, and it always costs them 3x as much as it would have if they had called me in the first place. Then they want to "value" engineer a project, but are unsatisfied with the results (which I advised against) and so end up upgrading and trashing the old gear, once again having spent 2x as much. And then because they don't have enough money, the project still isn't done to (my) specifications. Well, they just released a press release that they are starting on a new project. Guess what? I expect to get a call in six months to a year (about a month or two from opening the new project) about what I can do to fix what is going on.

Is it wrong that I want to call them and say "did you learn nothing from our past four projects"?

/vent

But in all seriousness I understand the sirens call of doing something cheaply and getting an "acceptable" result the first time. And I totally understand starting with a plan and doing what your budget can afford step by step to complete the plan.

But how many times do you have to do the media three step before you learn that it is the least efficient way to do things and not good stewardship?

Mike

[Mustangnaz]

Man, that sounds frustrating. I can understand both sides since we are a church that does a lot of things in-house and "creatively" to save money. Luckily we have some gifted people that do their homework first so we usually get acceptable to very good results. And if I'm not sure what to do I email someone like you first to point us in the right direction!
Your story reminds me of my best friend's dad from high school who owned a musical instrument repair shop. Anyone that tried to fix their horns themselves with JB weld automatically got charged double his normal hourly rate. Maybe you should have a fix-other-peoples-mistakes rate that will make them reconsider going the cheap route to start off with.

[Esoteric]

Hahahaha... I do! Not really, but I finished a renovation 4 months ago, an $18,000 renovation that would have cost about $10,000 to do right the first time.

[Mustangnaz]

Wow, that kind of stuff makes me sick. Working for a church I'm paranoid about not getting a best deal since I'm spending the hard-earned money of church members. If it was my church, I would appreciate getting a quote from you along with the renovation invoice of what it would have cost to do right the first time. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to send to the board or not, but definitely the head pastor.

[Esoteric]

Yeah, I did an estimate of what it would have cost from the beginning and sent it to the Pastor. And I was VERY conservative in my proper estimate. I think we could have done it for closer to $8000, but $10000 was safe.

When you have to go in and tear out drywall, fish wires through completed walls, run conduit in finished rooms, use ladders (because lifts will crack tile), etc those labor charges add up quick.

[petereit]

How many times? 70 times 7.

[Esoteric]

Hahahaha... Never seen that verse used quite that way.

[tdangelo]

Unfortunately when churches attempt to creatively save money (usually) neither happens. With all due respect to our Heavenly Father who can and sometimes does save us from and despite ourselves, it is rare that cost-cutting will not result in quality-cutting, and quality-cutting result in a neutered impact on the audience.

Why is it when this unfortunate truth is applied to technical-arts we often accept it as the way things must be? Why is this the status-quo?

If a church-leader approached a congregant or staffer and said, “you know, I heard about so-and-so church who has now started a racing team and is racing cars to get Christ’s message out to racing fans … let’s do the same thing,” would our response be:

“OK, great! If you want to have a racing team to run on a NASCAR or INDYCAR circuit we will need a mechanic, a driver, a race car, parts, support vehicles, a pit-crew, a spotter, communications, fuel, etc. Let me work-up a budget and we can plan the next step.”

Or, would we accept not having a mechanic, a driver who has ever driven on a race track and may not even have a driver’s license, a street car without racing safety features or power and handling to keep up; no parts, no support vehicles, no pit crew, no spotter, no communications and no fuel!

Why do we as tech-arts people do this? Do we really believe that God honors this behavior? Or, are we failing the church leadership (who justifiably so don’t understand the implications of their request), by not giving them an accurate appraisal of what tools and resources are required to deliver the result requested?

[Esoteric]

The problem is we have to be asked.

To extend your analogy (and what bothers me) is that the church leadership simply grabs a congregant (perhaps one who has even driven professionally, they drove semi's, but they drove professionally) and stuffs them into a car that they bought at a garage sale and points them to the track saying "go!"

My question is always.... Which honors God more? To do media poorly (but well meaning) or not to do media at all (I think honestly some people don't realize that the church existed before Pro Presenter, Media Shout, cameras, artificial lighting, and even microphones!)?

For me, the answer is, if you are going to do it poorly, don't do it at all (and this is coming from a guy who makes his living selling media equipment to churches!).

Do some churches NEED some things. I believe that yes, LARGE churches need microphones (although Peter preached to 3000 people without a microphone). And it sure makes it nice in a large church to be able to see the Pastor's facial expressions (although in 3 years of attending church in a 5000+ seat auditorium I can count on one hand the number of times I looked at the iMAG). But overall, we do not need this stuff to communicate God's love to people.

Can God communicate through these things? I believe he can and does.

But we do NOT honor God by doing things half donkey (as my sainted Grandmother used to say), and we do NOT honor God by misusing what he has so graciously given us.

Sorry. Something I feel strongly about.

Mike

PS I see how this can sneak up on someone doing their first project, really trying hard. But a second, third, fourth time. How long does it take to learn your lesson?

[JoshGuerette]

Right on. I visited a church recently and one of their core values of the church was Excellence. I can't get over how awesome that is to have as a foundation for what a church does. If you have the ability and will to do something, absolutely do it as best as you can. By being lazy (or even selfish) and doing it poorly, I see that as an insult to the people in the church and, more importantly, God.

Even on a practical level, it's a distraction and takes the focus away from where it should be. If you can't (or don't wish to) do it well, put it aside for another time.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Esoteric

Well, they just released a press release that they are starting on a new project. Guess what? I expect to get a call in six months to a year (about a month or two from opening the new project) about what I can do to fix what is going on.

Is it wrong that I want to call them and say "did you learn nothing from our past four projects"?

I think it would be entirely professional and appropriate to contact them, tell them you heard about the upcoming project and offer to help in whatever way you can to avoid some of the situations that have occurred in the past. If you present it in the context of looking forward and learning from the past rather than admonishing them for the past, then I certainly don't see anything wrong with such contact and would hope they would see the good intent and interest in serving them that it represents.

What is surprising to many is that such an attitude is not limited to lay persons. I have worked with some professional architects, construction mangers, developers, etc. that do not seem to be able to grasp the advantages of involving others early in a project. Whether this is an attempt to minimize the fees of those parties (which is doesn't do as much as they may think it does) or is a control issue, it almost always creates more problems than it avoids.

[rcourtney]

How many times do you tell a child not to do....something? As many as it takes.

Should you gently and with love remind them to contact you in the planning stage? Yes

Should churches invest in better gear rather than purchasing what they can
afford immediately? Yes, that is what long term goals are for.

I love the racing car scenario as long as it does not end up in a demolition
derby! (some would love to see us crushed)