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General Audio All things about sound are discussed here.

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 04:20 AM
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Don't overlook simple things such as having the channels assigned to multiple mix buses. The channels should be assigned to direct to the main mix, the "ST" button next to the channel faders, or to subgroups, the "1-2" and "3-4" buttons next to the channel faders, but typically to only one mix bus pair and not to subgroups and the stereo bus or to multiple subgroups.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 12:20 PM
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Something seems off here...
If I'm reading this right the speakers are 15 years old. Did they even have self-powered speakers then? If the board and speakers were that old and it's a small church it's probably most like it was a powered sound board and that's how the speakers got there power.
You now replaced the board and although you have signal the speakers have no power, so you hear very little but not near what you did with the old board.

What are the speaker models?

Also, Brad had a great idea about sub-groups....

Last edited by churchtech007; Thursday, October 17th, 2013 at 12:21 PM. Reason: I can't spell
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 03:41 PM
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So Simple!!!!

It was the power amp. Just needed to do some adjusting there. I can't believe I didn't look at that before.
Thanks for all your input in this. I learned a lot from this and even wrote things down. Before this is said and done I do have a question to ask.

We have a small sanctuary. Roughly 60'x60' if that. We're doing a complete overhaul on the system and are looking to get PA speakers next. Which would be better to get; passive or active speakers?

Steven
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 04:35 PM
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Steven,

The simple ones are always the best!!!

(1) Is it plugged in? (2) Is it turned on? (3) Is it turned up? (4) Has it been changed since it worked?

Glad you are away now.

Regarding the speakers - it all depends.

We changed from passives to actives about 5 years ago. The cabinets are much heavier and I would personally go for passives next time. I was going to go for passives in the first place - but the new youth minister suggested actives - and I found some of the ones he recommended (as he had used them before) at knock down prices (end of line products).

My personal preference is to keep the speaker as simple as possible and keep the amplifier and the associated controls under the A/V team's control.

Dave
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 04:39 PM
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Much appreciated. I was doing some research and wasn't really sure.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 05:27 PM
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Would a pair of 12" PA with 550W (Peak) be enough for a sanctuary that is 50'x50'?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Thursday, October 17th, 2013, 06:45 PM
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OK two things;

If you found it was the gain on the power amp but you didn't get to that point by doing a systematic setting of your gain structure then you are closer but you probably don't have it right yet. Quick test, If you do, then playing music through one channel, that channel will be at or near 0. The main will be at or near 0 and the meter on the board will be showing lots of action. If that is not the case then you need to set up your gain structure. It isn't hard. the second time you do it it will take less then 5 min. more like 3 min.

Speakers. What is wrong with the ones you have? What do you want the new ones to do that the old ones are not doing. Assuming you need new speakers then let me give an opinion using myself as an example. I would feel comfortable choosing, buying, and installing microphones, mixers, DSP, amp and everything in between. I will setup speakers for a one time event and adjust the EQ for the room. I am very comfortable choosing DI boxes because I build and sell them. I would not under any circumstances chose speakers for my church. Why not?

I don't own the software to model the room. I don't know what speakers to plug into the software model for the room if I had it. Most important I don't have experience choosing speakers. I do know that if I chose a speaker then I would need to figure out where in the room it should be, then how to aim it, then how to test it and EQ it for that room. I have witnessed this work and helped with it and I know that the difference between the right speaker in the wrong place and having everything right is a good sounding system and a unusable system.

If I mess up the settings for a one day gig, then OK things were not there best. If I buy the wrong speakers I have wasted a LOT of the churches money and worse yet the church is stuck with bad sound for a long time.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Friday, October 18th, 2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven515 View Post
Would a pair of 12" PA with 550W (Peak) be enough for a sanctuary that is 50'x50'?
That may sound like a simple question but it is really a rather complex one. Is the application speech only, light music, high output reinforcement or what? What sources may run through the speakers? Is the system mono with each speaker covering half the room or stereo with each speaker covering all of the room? Are the speakers flown, on stands or ground stacked? Are there subwoofers? Any idea on the levels desired from the system? What is the sensitivity of the speakers and what is driving the speakers? What is the pattern of the speakers, where are they located and how does that relate to the listeners and open mics on stage?

Put simply, there can be a number of factors that may vary from one situation to another and beyond the technical issues, what is considered "enough" in one situation may not be deemed "enough" in another. That is why it can be so important to identify the goals and expectations for a system as that can provide some basis for ascertaining whether a specific solution may meet those goals or not.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Monday, October 21st, 2013, 03:29 PM
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What Frank said!
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tuesday, October 22nd, 2013, 12:37 PM
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In addition to what Brad said, a wattage rating is not what you want to compare speakers with. Wattage just tells you how much amplifier power the speaker can handle. A more efficient speaker can get the same or greater loudness with less amplifier power than a speaker with poor efficiency.

You want to look at the MAX SPL output of the speakers, which is the Sound Pressure Level, based on the efficiency of the speakers and theier power handling, and a good spec sheet will tell you what %THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) you are getting at that rating. Now there's still no industry standard for that measurement, and without a %THD spec, it may be useless (Who cares how much SPL you can get if it's distorted), but it's a better way to judge whether speaker A is louder than Speaker B, than just going by the Watts (which can be represented in terms of RMS, Peak, Average, Continuous, peak program or any other number of not apples to apples ratings).
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