One compressor over whole mix?

[elhewman]

Hey every one I am an enthusiastic but very newbie bedroom producer /computer musician that has tried to learn the art of mixing for a little over 2 years now.

I just obtained the new challenge of being "mr. soundboard" of a struggling church worship team. The first of many problems I notice is that I we have a Newer drummer that assumes louder is better and a couple of singers that are flat, loud, and love high notes.
I have never dealt with compression in a hardware(non-computer) environment before and can only assume that I need a different compressor unit for each channel. If thats the case, then we cant afford that right now.
Which arises the question, can I compress the whole mix with decent results? I am about to lose my hearing over cymbal crashes.

Awesome forum by the way! And I hope I can contribute in anyway possible.

Thanks in advance.

[elhewman]

Just answered a little bit of my question with research I should have done previously, sorry. I see that there are compressors that do different channels but are the same unit. I think our budget is around 400 dollars and the Higher end multi channel units seem out of the price range. I was thinking and Art Pro Vla II compressor at around 300.00 but not sure yet.

[Borggren]

How about some instruction and training to the singers, as you would do if recording in a studio.
If the drummer is playing to loud on acoustic drums, then things are absolutely out of control. Again some teaching so he understand his role in the service, is the first place to start.
I know this can be very difficult, compared to just try to solve the problem with electronic devices, but at the end the result will be much better.

[daver2]

Welcome to CMN elhewman.

Try and do the 'training' bit first before throwing technology at a solution - it very rarely works at best and the cash may be better spent elsewhere later on.

We have three drummers and they all play completely differently. One of the three likes rock music and likes to play "hard" no matter what we say. The solution in the end was to place the drum kit in an enclosure (as the amount of acoustic output even with the mix OFF was too loud!).

Fortunately, we have a digital mixer desk, so we have access to compressors on all input and output strips which we also make use of. Obviously - if the drummer is making everyone's ears bleed - you need to do something... Is it just an acoustic volume level (drum quieter ) or is it the amount of energy coming through the mixer desk? In this case, have you grouped all of the drum inputs together and could you add a single compressor to the drum group?

I am glad you like the forum and I am sure that you will be able to contribute.

Let us know what your existing set-up is (e.g. how many singers, musicians etc. microphone types, mixer desk make and model, amps and speakers). Also, keep an eye on the "for sale" section of CMN - there are sometimes some good deals to be had there.

Dave

[Brad Weber]

The issues with compression on the overall mix could be two-fold. First, you would be compressing the mixed signal, which would probably mean already compensating to some degree for the relative levels. Second, any compression would affect the overall mix and everything in it. If the drums trigger compression then the vocals, guitars and everything else will also be compressed. Being able to compress the individual inputs or a subgroup as Dave noted is usually much preferred.

In addition, for the drums you may need to also consider how much of the issue is the sound through the mixer and how much is direct acoustic sound. All the compression in the world on the audio signal won't affect the direct sound. If that is a factor and the drummer can't or won't tone down their playing then a drum enclosure may be appropriate. If they don't want that then tell them to learn to tone it down. If a drummer is unwilling to play, or at least try to play, softer and/or in an enclosure then that is their choice but the simple reality is that they are then also choosing to potentially not be part of situations that may require one or the other.

[tedanderson]

I can tell you first hand that tools, gadgets, and technological gizmos just DO NOT work if the drummer is out of control.

We are fortunate to have enough equipment to compress each channel, each subgroup and the entire mix. However, if the drummer is too loud, his sound comes through the guitar mic, the choir mics, and the handheld vocal mics.

The bottom line is that he has to be considerate of his fellow band members, the audio team, and his fellow congregants... ESPECIALLY if money is tight. Too add to what was said earlier, that money can be better spent elsewhere. IMHO it should not be spent to overcome someone's selfish desires.

[elhewman]

Wow! Thanks for the replies and I have food for thought on each reply. The drummer is in his late 50's and just learning. He has been playing for 6 months or so and really likes upbeat modern worship like David Crowder. He is nervous most the time so I think I will break it to him after he gets some more experience in a few months or so.

We have micrphoned enclosure for the drums by the way I honestly do not think There needs to be any drum amplification (exempt a little bit of a kick drum boost) but the other soundtech guy + the band wants it maxed out to hear it in the stage monitors at the crowds hearing expense. Thats another topic.

Anyway I'll try give a more formal intro later with my set up and worship team details. I am actually having loads of fun working out sound for my church. I am learning things that apply to my own home studio projects so its rewarding in many different ways.

Thanks

[daver2]

Another thought for you to think about...

Do you have a nominated "worship leader" for the service? We have, and this avoids the potential "sound technicians verses musicians" syndrome. The worship leader is charged with defining what (s)he wants the worship group to sound like during the service and then we all pull together to try and achieve that. Our worship leaders are drawn from the worship team (so they are musical) but they constantly talk to the sound technicians to know what is possible, what can and can't be done easily with the existing set-up, and what is working and not working.

Some of the worship team leaders are Elders - which is also a 'plus' when it comes to asking someone to "tone down their playing" or knowing the appropriate words to get the best out of someone's abilities.

If you're having fun and learning stuff in the process then that is good. Keep it up!

Dave

[elhewman]

Yes We do have a worship leader. He is a little non -confrontational but on the flip side my Pastor is always giving constructive criticism So if he agrees the drums are to loud then I can say " both the Pastor and I think the drums are to loud". That should work.

Thanks

[Rickcperry]

I think there's solutions in all the above comments. When we have this problem I will only mic the overall drum kit. If the drum wash is still too much I will ask the worship leader to have the drummer play softer. Nobody likes playing behind a drum shield and I hate mixing drums that are behind them as well. My final solution before finding another drummer is to give him "hotrods" I prefer the plastic ones over the wooden ones. It's almost like a slap in the face to give him brushes on a song that doesn't sound right with them.
Save the compressors for the vocals, if you are short on cash then buy one and place it on the vocal group (if your board has groups) until you can dedicate one per singer.
If the musicians are good, you will hardly need them anywhere else anyhow. IMHO

[pdc]

1. Yes, it is common practice to use compression and/or limiting as a creative tool and a protective tool on the master buss, in the speaker system processing, etc.
2. There are many types of compressors. Each type has it's application and limitations.
3. I would not use an ART compressor for live sound, on a master buss. It is a good beginner piece for the studio. It is patterned after another famous topology that is good for coloring broadly. It is a bit slow. I would use a compressor like a dbx 160 to start.
4. You must start mixing your sound before it gets to the console. You need to mix the people/instruments themselves. Once you get the sound right on stage, then you can begin to fill in the gaps in the room with the mix.
5. Strive to use your sound system as a creative tool, not for damage control. If you can get to this point, life will be cake.

[Esoteric]

*sigh* I wish our drummer would listen. But you know how it is, large donor, founding member of the worship team, very good friends with the worship pastor, sets the mix himself.

So people complain, no one does anything.

On the other hand when he is not there, the mix sounds GREAT.