Difficult Bass Player

[ALPSound]

Hey CMN,

First post here! I just wanted to know how others would deal with my situation.
I have a full band, Percussion, Drums, Keyboard, Electric and Acoustic Guitars, about 11 Back Up Vocals and one Lead, and a Bass Player. I have five monitor mixes with 3 being in ear monitors, 2 of them bridged with a loud speaker system. My stage monitors are 5 JBL SRX 715's, you already know the stage can get loud, but my biggest problem here is the Bass player; he has his own amp with a bass cabinet consisting of 2 15in subwoofers! He gets really loud, the church is an old theater, not that big but fits a good 600, his amp eats up the other instruments in the house without me even amplifying him in the main mix. He is unfortunately very hard headed and does not understand when I explain to him that he cannot get that loud. I have the speakers in the house to give a great bass guitar sound but I can't do it because his amp is always so loud and muddy you cannot even hear the details just feel it and hear a muddy sound.
I get his signal through his processing amp, I get a direct signal from his bass so my output in the signal path is before all his processing in his amp, so I told him; to try to play without his cabinet on and I will EQ his bass on the outside so it sounds nice and punchy with good detail, and then I will raise his monitor where it is safe for the speaker but comfortable for him, once that is done he can pick up the volume on his cabinet to where only he can feel the bass and no one else.

What do you guys think of my approach? How would you guys deal with an ignorant bass guitar player?

Thanks!

[Jay M]

I think there might be two issues.

The first and most difficult, is that he has probably spent hours dialing in his sound to exactly the way he wants it. He's not about to let you bypass it. Typically you would want to use his processing, then tweak the EQ for room/mix related reasons.

The second issue, can be related to the first in a very bad way. If he is standing next to the bass cabinet, then he will have no clue how it sounds or how loud it is. If he spent hours tweaking the sound without knowing how it sounds to the rest of the world, then all his work was in vein. That will be a hard thing to tell him if he isn't open mined and teachable.

The solution is to have him stand 10 feet in front of his amp, and angle it up at ear level so he can actually hear what it sounds like. Remember, low notes take a lot of space to develop. He won't even hear low notes if he is standing close to the amp.

You can also have him use a long cable and let him walk out into the room so he can hear how it sounds.

You said he was ignorant, this will educate him.

If he actually likes what you hate, then you have a big problem.

At that point, there is no democracy, the man in charge has to make a decision. I assume the worship leader would be that man?

~Jay

[cmchamp]

As a bass player, here's what I've got going on that works for us.
Hartke 5000 head with DI output and parallel speaker outs (BiAmp or Mono) that can be controlled.
I send full range out both and "pan" the outputs to get the blend I need.
I have a 15" cabinet right behind the drummer.
I have a 12" 2 way Community XL41 floor monitor at my feet to my right so I can hear the overtone series.
The "thump" and "bottom" for me comes from the subs in the house.
The drummer gets what he needs for time.
We're all happy.
If your bass player is more about "me" than Him and being a part of the lead worshiper team, and Jay's recommendations and those to follow don't work, I guess it's your MOM/WL/Sr.Pastor's responsibility to take further action.
C.

[cmchamp]

Welcome aboard! Definitely praying for your situation.

[ALPSound]

@Jay M
I actually have tried getting his tweak but it was just horrible I EQ his sound and I just did not like it, all he is EQuing is his two 15's and our stage isnt so big so we cant have him 10 feet out he'd be in the center of the stage haha. His cabinet is also a vertical cab so no way he can lay it down unless its horizontal. He told me himself he does not understand his details while playing all he feels is the bass, so yeah, im actually waiting for him right now so we can try my solution.

@CMChamp
I know we have a head with similar features to yours(SWR Working Pro 700) but I am not sure what you mean when you say pan to get the blend you like.
And thank you for the welcome and prayers!

[cmchamp]

My Hartke has a Lo/Hi option on the BiAmp/Mono output. When in BiAmp mode, the knob controls the balance between the Lo/Hi outputs at the sweepable crossover point for driving LF/HF cabinets. When in Mono mode, the knob controls the balance between two cabinets.
C.

[ALPSound]

@CMChamp, oh ok I understand your set up now, wish this head had the same feature haha.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Jay M

Remember, low notes take a lot of space to develop. He won't even hear low notes if he is standing close to the amp.

I agree with many of your other comments but this is a common misconception usually resulting from an erroneous understanding how sound 'travels' or propagates. If it were true we'd all have really huge headphones and earphones.

ALPSound, the problem I see with the approach identified is that it is the entire signal chain from input circuitry through signal processing, amp and speaker that create the overall 'sound' of their rig. If the DI output is essentially a split of the input then equalization alone will probably not be able to create the same result. This also treads into the volatile topic of your deciding what any instrument should sound like versus a musician deciding how their instrument sounds.

While they do need to understand how what they do affects the overall sound in the house, you also need to understand their desire to control the sound of their instrument. A good result is probably going to take working together and developing some trust that you are all working toward the same goals.

[Natepelzel]

I know that with bass players, as far as volume goes, a lot of the time they like to have it so loud because they want to feel the rumble when they play. We've been having similar problems with out bass player, and we recently had our sanctuary assessed by a professional, and he recommended putting some Butt kickers in our stage, so the bass player can still feel the beat without slamming his amp volume. That may be a good investment for you all. Butt kickers are relatively inexpensive compared to most audio equipment.

Hope that helps,

Nate

[ALPSound]

@Brad Weber, I do understand I cannot force a musician's instrument to how I want it, because it is theirs, but they do need to consider where they play, they are at a church not a concert.

@Natepelzel, I am not kidding you I was thinking of that approach but I did not think to much of it because I did not think it would work so thanks for letting me know that!

[dmot]

The music in most churches is a very hot topic and usually they aren't very clear about exactly what they want. The first thing I think every church needs to do is have a clear chain of command concerning the music. Within that structure there needs to be someone who is given the responsibility AND authority to make decisions on a week to week basis. That way if there is a problem with the music everyone knows who to go to.

After that is clearly established you need to get that person to listen from the audience and determine exactly what sound they want. I say that for two reasons. You want to make sure that your own ears are hearing the bass the same way you are assuming everyone else is hearing it. You also want to be sure that what you think sounds bad is not the sound they are actually going for. Most concerts have one or two warm-up bands and there have been times when I thought a certain bands bass was way out of control. When I talked to my kids about it later they didn't think anything of it.

After you have cleared that up you can then tackle the problem knowing you've done your due diligence.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by ALPSound

@Brad Weber, I do understand I cannot force a musician's instrument to how I want it, because it is theirs, but they do need to consider where they play, they are at a church not a concert.

I agree but the point was really that they need to trust that you are working toward the same goals and while it may not have been intended that way, asking "How would you guys deal with an ignorant bass guitar player?" rather than how to solve the problem probably gives the wrong impression.

Originally Posted by ALPSound

@Natepelzel, I am not kidding you I was thinking of that approach but I did not think to much of it because I did not think it would work so thanks for letting me know that!

If their issue is primarily being able to feel the bass then something like http://www.thebuttkicker.com/musicia...ts/bkp_kit.htm may help. I personally don't like how confining that is but if you have a tight stage setup they may already be limited in how much they can move. If the issue to them is the general sound of their rig then that may not help that much.

What also might help is if they were to get a smaller rig that they could run hard to get the sound they want without requiring as much actual output (and less space). And you may have already tried this but an approach many people employ with some success is to let them get everything set the way they want and then have someone else play while they listen out in the audience area. That may either open their eyes a bit or give you further insight into their perspective.