Isolate Piano from Loud Stage

[cw4u]

Besides toning the orchestra down, what ways are their to isolate the piano mics from a busy stage? I've got an SM81 and A-T 40 series LDC in the piano. My main issue is that a decent amount of noise is coming into the mics. Generally around 300-400 hz. The piano is at 1/4 stick.

The piano is laid across it's side in the middle of the stage opening towards the back of the stage. To the left of the piano, about a foot away, is the trumpet section. (4-6 people) To the right of the piano, about 4-5 feet away is the electric and bass guitar. (with amps) Behind and to the right of the piano is the Roland drum set which is pretty loud with it's accompanying monitor set. The choir is about 5-6 feet behind the piano.

We used a Barcus Berry pickup before but were unhappy with the sound quality. Maybe it wasn't mounted correctly? From what I recall, the low end was really lacking with it.

Could you drape material over the piano to kinda isolate it from the rest of the stage? People are always complaining that they can't hear the piano in their monitors and I believe part of the problem is that the source of the audio is distorted to begin with and when they add other instruments into their mixes that they lose the piano completely.

Our FOH engineer doesn't have a problem with the way it sounds now, but I, the broadcast audio engineer, do.

[prochlea]

You can suspend mics over the strings with Gaff tape, and put mics over the sound holes resting on foam/secured with gaff tape. Then you close the lid completely - even the front part that flips over.

[waynehoskins]

I've put a miniature condenser (MKE2, Shure SM93, etc.) in a baby grand before with pretty good success. That lets the lid be completely closed and still sounds at least half decent. One of the times was a last-minute addition, for a high school showchoir performance, where I just threw a spare bodypack wireless on it, taping the element near the upper-mid strings, and it actually worked out well.

As for isolation, proximity to brass will always be a problem. They're inherently loud all the time, while a piano is only loud when you hammer on it.

A couple of solutions come to mind. You could put a MIDI box on the piano. A church I was at in the '90s did that -- I think they used it to add string sounds, but I'm not sure. A better solution, depending on who you ask, might be to go to an electronic piano. In particular, Sara Bareilles plays one on tour -- you must see the video footage if you haven't -- that looks like a real piano, except for the control panel just above the keyboard. If money weren't a consideration, that's what I'd do in a heartbeat. Sounds great, looks great. If you didn't see the control panel, you'd swear it's a real piano.

[cmchamp]

I have successfully gaff taped PCC160's to the lid and closed it. For stereo imaging, I place them back to back over middle C.
C.

[Gracetech]

I use to use quite a few setups live but now i just use the DPA SMK4061 and put the mics on the metal frame above the sound board with the included magnetic mounts just a few inches away from the hammers. I have yet to find a more simpler setup that sounds half as good. Now in the studio it's a completely different story.

crt

BTW this works best with the lid shut.

[raweber]

Before we eliminated the on-stage monitors (when to in-ear) we had really good results with setting a standard dynamic mic on a rolled up towel (not in) on the plate (the metal frame part of the piano). With the lid closed you get almost no bleed and a surprisingly good sound from the piano. Used this at two different churches, in fact.

Rob

[prochlea]

Here's an article about piano Mic'ing from a pretty smart sound engineer in Chicago. He's also the head of the live sound dept. at Columbia College Chicago (where I went to school). His classes were always awesome.

[bpalermini]

The one mic (SM57) over the sound hole on a piece of foam with the lid closed as described in the article is a great and very easy setup. I've used it and it sounds amazingly good plus that you can close the lid and take everything else out of the piano input is a huge help. I've told others to try it and always get the raised eyebrows response. Nice to have it confirmed as a good option here.

[EmilBarnabas]

Originally Posted by cw4u

Could you drape material over the piano to kinda isolate it from the rest of the stage?

First see how it works with the lid closed. If that is not enough isolation, I have seen folks use heavy blankets to cover the piano.

[cw4u]

We actually tried the mic over the sound hole last night. It works great! I have an SM81 in there and it's awesome!

I'm going to see if closing the lid is an option now.

Any ideas on how to get a more stereo-ish image though with such a technique? It sounds great out on FOH but it's rather flat back on broadcast.

[prochlea]

to get a more stereo image, you're going to need more than one mic...

[cw4u]

I know but you couldn't just stick another one above a sound hole could you?