Digital recorders, what is the difference?

[scarleton]

Rack vs Portable recorder

I posted a few days ago about the setup I have in mind to record our service/sermons. I have been pretty set on getting a rack mounted unit like the Tascam SS-R1 to record the service. My thought process was:

• mounted hardware (as compared to portable/table top) unit so that wires won't be bumped.
• Dedicated power all the time
• I am assuming that it is simply a higher end unit, producing a higher end master

Last night I was talking with my pastor, who happens to also be a good friend. I told him how I was thinking of using one channel of the recorder to record the out from the soundboard and then spiting his mike input and recording that straight to the other track of the recorder.

With that, he asked: Do we want to get an 8 track unit so we can record the worship music on separate tracks for post production? I immediately thought of the price tag of the 24 channel rack mount units and pushed back. He then reminded me there are portable 8 track units like the Zoom R8 or Tascam DP-008 which is less then the rack unit I am considering.

Q: So my question is: What IS the difference between the rack units and the portable units?

From what I can tell the Zoom R8 has 8 inputs, but that is mixed down to only record 2 tracks. Either that or it is designed to record only 2 at a time. I am figuring it is so that you can lay down the drum track, then come back play that as you record the bass track, and then come back play those as you add the lead guitar, and then finally play them all back and lay down the vocals. But you cannot record 8 tracks at one time.

Q: What is the real difference in quality between the rack units and the portable?

Recording to Computer
And finally, recording to the computer. I am not at all a big fan of that, if we do, I want to use a high end sound card of some sort.

Q: What sound card would folks recommend?

One of the issues I have with the whole computer system is reliability. Dedicated hardware is always going to be a bit more reliable (I am a software developer by day, I know all about bugs in software). But the more I think about it, what I really like about the rack unit is that it is SO simple to get going: Makes sure the SD card is in the unit, press Record. When songs change and the sermon starts, press record again to create a track. Anyone can do it! No fumbling for the mouse as you go from the worship computer to the audio computer trying to hit the right button, no second keyboard in a already small space, etc.

Q: What are the real pro's and con's?

In the end I simply want to make sure we spend the funds wisely

Sam

[pdc]

You will be happier with a rack mount unit, with standardized connectors, more flexible I/O, etc. It will last longer and will not be dropped or stolen as easily as a portable unit.

The Tascam allows for external control. It is possible to remote control it from an audio device or some other control pad, if that matters to you.

Some of the portable units, like some of Zooms, do not allow for the long continuous recording times you will have in a church. Some of these units allow for recording shorter clips. 99% of the portable units use unbalanced stereo in connections, which may be an issue for you. You could have to have a transformer between your mixer and the recorder, depending on your AC power, equipment and wiring scheme.

I use the Marantz and Korg units, they are solid. We sell the Tascams but I have not used them personally in high duty cycle situations.

As far as recording to computer is concerned, it works, as long as you keep a dedicated computer, properly configured/tweaked and disconnected from the internet, you should not have any issues. I would always run a back up because something will happen, sometime. Not all recording software is good and intuitive for the volunteer user.

For cards, I would look at Lynx, RME, etc. I do not know what your system is or what you record, so it is hard to say. If you really want to do this and do it simply, replace your console with a Presonus StudioLive 24.4.2 or 16.4.2, hook a firewire up to your computer with the free Capture software installed, hit a couple of buttons and call it good and done. If you want to edit and mix, use the free Studio One Artist software.

I would throw this out, there is not the demand for most church's music to make it worth the investment and most churches do not have the chops to do it well without some outside help. So, I would only do music recording using what I had available to me, without spending additional money on something that will only be used on occasion, or until there is a change/someone gets frustrated, etc. I would rent gear or contract someone to do the first production so you can see what it takes to do it well, and then see if it is worth it. Just my two cents working for two mega churches with over 300k in music budgets and little to no revenue to cover it.

[scarleton]

Originally Posted by pdc

You will be happier with a rack mount unit, with standardized connectors, more flexible I/O, etc. It will last longer and will not be dropped or stolen as easily as a portable unit.

The Tascam allows for external control. It is possible to remote control it from an audio device or some other control pad, if that matters to you.

yea, the remote control is something I really liked, that way it can be easier to access the record button to set the tracks marks.

Originally Posted by pdc

Some of the portable units, like some of Zooms, do not allow for the long continuous recording times you will have in a church. Some of these units allow for recording shorter clips. 99% of the portable units use unbalanced stereo in connections, which may be an issue for you. You could have to have a transformer between your mixer and the recorder, depending on your AC power, equipment and wiring scheme.

Thank you, that is all a very lot of good points.

Originally Posted by pdc

I use the Marantz and Korg units, they are solid. We sell the Tascams but I have not used them personally in high duty cycle situations.

WOW, the Marantz and Korg are some seriously expensive units! Someone else, in another post, said they didn't much care for Tascam and recommended the Denon DN-F650R. So the question is...

In a small church where we do 3 services a weekend right now and will be adding up to two more over the next year (we have very little space so we are maximizing what we have), what will serve the church the best, save money today and get the Tascam or get the better, more reliable Denon? I have a lot of discretion in this call; I just want to make sure it is as correct as possible. What is paramount to me is to kick out the best possible audio recording.

[waynehoskins]

If you really want to track, you can't beat the Studiolive consoles. Digital console and 16/24tk Firewire interface in one inexpensive box.

15 years ago, when I was but a youth, I had a dream to make a good live worship recording. I tried off and on for five or six years, both live-mixing and multitracking, and it never came out well. I was able to get pretty close without any dynamics processing, but without that it fell short. Fast-forward to the last five years. New church, better gear, same dream. New problem, too many good recordings. Every week, it's pretty good. Where I had originally thought to pick the best samples that might make an album, now there are too many to pick from. And too many songs in the repertoire. I abandoned the live-worship-disc dream a few years ago, not for technical or talent limitations (either the band's playing or my mixing), but for practicality. If we wanted to do a live disc, we could, but until then the exercise is complete.

I will say it's a valuable learning exercise, tracking and post-mixing and live-mixing.

I wonder about the usefulness of tracking with only 8 tracks. That's not much; most drumkits have that many mics on them. A decade ago we used to strap two or three 8tk machines (either ADAT or DA88, both mag tape machines) together to get 16 or 24 tracks. Some of the stuff I tried back then was on a pair of ADATs, and the band barely fit on 16 tracks.

The best possible audio recording (of music at least) takes a good console, good microphones, good processing equipment, and most importantly good talent. Until you have all of those, I suspect the difference in audio quality between Brand A and Brand B of the same basic recorder class will be negligible.

If you do end up seriously pursuing multitrack capture and post-production, I can see that happening one of three ways: a console like the Studiolive that connects over Firewire, interfaces hooked to the direct outs of a mid-grade or better console (GL, Venice, Spirit), or a console that integrates with Protools like a Venue. Direct computer capture is the name of the game now.

[Jay M]

The expensive Denon unit I recommend is very easy and convenient and the fact that it records to a USB stick makes it perfect for my situation. The fact that it made volunteer work more efficient made the pastor willing to spend the money on it. Currently I master about 4 sermons per week on a volunteer basis. Being efficient makes it possible for me.

2 of the sermons are form the Denon.
1 is from a CD burner.
1 is from the Zoom H4n detailed below.

The CD burner is wired in such a way that it records house EQ. That makes the sermon take significantly longer to master each week. I hope they will spring for a Denon unit.

I can't remember if I posted this in your other thread, but I'll post it here just in case....

At my bible study on Fridays nights I use a $300 Zoom H4n recorder in the way you mentioned above - mic split on channel 1, and line out on channel 2. For our bible study I take the output from the wireless receiver into a cheap $35 Art mic splitter to both the Mackie board, and the H4n. Channel 2 uses the "utility" output from the Mackie board in case something else might need to be on the recording.

With the H4n you need to know that the XLR inputs are not line level, they only accept mic level so you need to be careful what you feed them.

In another situation I use the H4n to record music. The H4n is unique in that it can record 4 tracks - its built-in mics and the XLR inputs. I used the built in Mics to capture the room sound, and then assigned all the vocals to group 1 on the mixer, and plugged that into channel 1 on the H4n, then I assigned everything else to group 3 on the mixer and plugged that into channel 2 on the H4n. The results were very good for how easy and cheap it was to do.

The band leader plans to use those recordings to post on Facebook so people can get familiar with the songs during the week.

Except for the lack of line level inputs, I am very happy with the quality, ease of use, and reliability of the H4n. I have only lost one recording on it and I think that was because I let the SD card fill up. There have been several firmware updates since then, so that might no longer be an issue. Either way, I don't let the card get full anymore.

I have no experience with the bigger Zoom units such as the H8, H16, and H24, but their price is right. It's just their form factor that might be less than ideal. Also as someone else suggested, I don't know how useful only 8 channels would be.

If you are serious about recording music, and the church is willing to cough up about $2500, then I'd look at the JoeCo Black Box recorder. It's a 24 channel 1U rackmout recorder that records to a USB drive, or even a fast USB stick. It has been designed form the ground up for live event recording so there are many fail safes built in. One model is is designed to be plugged into the channel inserts on your console so you can record every channel. You can also use it for a virtual soundcheck so you can pretend you have a $50,000 Venue system. That would be great for training people.

I have no personal experience with the JoeCo unit, but it has many good reviews, and Joe was the creator of Sadie, so the JoeCo name might be new, but Joe is very experienced in digital audio.

~Jay

[pdc]

Wow. If you are recording post house EQ, I would change that. I would take the recording feed from a buss output, or from the pastor's mic channel's direct out.

We recently began installing the Denons in high school audio systems, in place of CD players. These are the new standard format for us. We have had no issues at all.

[Jay M]

I wish there were an easy way to do that. It's a Mackie Onyx board so the direct outs are on a multi pin tascam connector, or what ever it's called.

The CD recorder is on an AUX bus, but on this Mackie, all six AUX sends are post EQ. At first I thought that was a silly thing to do, but it turns out the monitors usually need the same type of EQ that the house needs.

If I were good with a soldering iron, you can open up the mixer and individually make each AUX pot pre EQ. But you have to jump through major hoops to get the instructions from Mackie. But hey, it was cheap and sounds pretty good

I think I might just get a Mic splitter and a little Shure mixer for sermon recording.

I'm really happy to hear that you are having some good long term success with the Denon units. I've only been using ours for about 6 months, but so far it has been really good. It's so easy to use that it only takes one Sunday to train students from our bible study.

~Jay

[pdc]

You can buy a DB25 to XLR or TRS fan out for cheap. Hosa makes them and everyone sells them. So don't let that DB25 be your limitation. The direct outs are pre EQ IIRC.