General Monitor issues

[TimCha]

Hello,
I need some general advice on basic monitor sound with a Mackie VLZ 32/4 pro. We have had some issues with not enough sound in the monitor. Let me locate a picture of the board so I can make more sense Couldn't locate a picture, but we have all main monitor feeds on unity and I turned up the Stereo Aux return knobs on unity, they were cut down hoping that would boost the monitor feed. I was thinking of turning the knob called "send to aux 1-2". Then on each individual section I put the monitor knob whereever they can hear themselves. Here is how we have the monitors set on stage, we have monitor 1 which is two monitors one on each side of the pulpit, Monitor 2 is one monitor beside the singers, Monitor 3 is behind the piano and another connection run to another monitor to the drummer. other words Monitor 3 is two monitors connected together. We have a cord running from the one behind the piano to the one with the drummer. Only main issue we have is the monitor behind the piano, the bass guitar or piano isn't heard that well in that monitor and we have the individual settings on 12 o clock position. Another thing we have done is press the prefader button to on all individual channels.
Thanks for your assistance!
Tim

[kfhoech]

Since no one else has replied, I'll take a stab at answering this.

First, let me say that I've never mixed on a Mackie console, but I don't think your problem is specific to that brand. Presumably, this: http://www.mackie.com/products/sr32-4vlzpro/ is the console in question, right? The aux master section for this console is somewhat different than the consoles I'm familiar with. I'll need to study its block diagram a little to be sure I'm answering your question correctly.

Generally speaking, on any modern console reducing something will not boost something else. (As an aside, acoustically reducing something may help "uncover" something else.)
This is true of your console as well, and unless something is plugged into the returns, these knobs will do nothing.

As far as configuration goes, you've stated that you use Aux 1, 2, and 3 for stage monitors. Generally, having the monitors set up pre-fader is the right way to go. You stated that the "Pre" buttons on each of the input channels is in; so you're right there.

The next thing to do is check that the power amplifiers are set up right. Do you have active monitor speakers (meaning is the power amplifier built in to the speaker)? Or do you have passive speakers with external power amplifiers? What are the gain settings on the amplifiers? If you play a CD through the monitors, can each monitor be adjusted to be the correct sound level?

Let me know and I'll get back to you.

Blessings.

[bpalermini]

It sounds to me like you might be thinking about the controls backwards. Also that you seem to be afraid of turning knobs up past unity. Try this.

First turn the aux feed knobs and the main fader for each channel all the way down. Now, be sure the monitor speaker amps (internal or external) are turned up 2/3 or so. Turn the Aux masters to straight up (unity).

Set the Trim for each channel so that you are getting a good green light on the channel strip. I am not positive about that mixer but on most if you press the Solo for one channel the meters in the main section should show the signal on that individual channel. You want to see a good signal for each channel, one at a time, with very little clipping (red light coming on).

Now, adjust the aux feed on each channel to whatever level is necessary for the musician. Don't worry exactly where they are set and it is likely that each one will be set differently.

If you can't get enough level for them to hear turn up the Aux master to 2 o'clock. If not there, try 3 o'clock. If that doesn't work turn up the amps.

Unless you are way under powered you should be able to find a good level. Heck, your next problem is going to be too much stage volume

Don't worry about those send to aux knobs. They are for feeding you monitors with effects (reverb, delay, etc.).

PS: making these adjustments will also mean you will need to re-mix the house sound. It may be different if the Trims had been set very differently than a nice, full signal per channel.

Isn't this fun!

[TimCha]

Originally Posted by kfhoech

Since no one else has replied, I'll take a stab at answering this.

First, let me say that I've never mixed on a Mackie console, but I don't think your problem is specific to that brand. Presumably, this: http://www.mackie.com/products/sr32-4vlzpro/ is the console in question, right? The aux master section for this console is somewhat different than the consoles I'm familiar with. I'll need to study its block diagram a little to be sure I'm answering your question correctly.

Generally speaking, on any modern console reducing something will not boost something else. (As an aside, acoustically reducing something may help "uncover" something else.)
This is true of your console as well, and unless something is plugged into the returns, these knobs will do nothing.

As far as configuration goes, you've stated that you use Aux 1, 2, and 3 for stage monitors. Generally, having the monitors set up pre-fader is the right way to go. You stated that the "Pre" buttons on each of the input channels is in; so you're right there.

The next thing to do is check that the power amplifiers are set up right. Do you have active monitor speakers (meaning is the power amplifier built in to the speaker)? Or do you have passive speakers with external power amplifiers? What are the gain settings on the amplifiers? If you play a CD through the monitors, can each monitor be adjusted to be the correct sound level?

Let me know and I'll get back to you.

Blessings.

It is Passive speakers with external power amp under the stage. I have played CD through the monitors but the sound levels are different for CD player and live instruments playing. I don't know the gain settings on the amp.

[TimCha]

Originally Posted by bpalermini

It sounds to me like you might be thinking about the controls backwards. Also that you seem to be afraid of turning knobs up past unity. Try this.

First turn the aux feed knobs and the main fader for each channel all the way down. Now, be sure the monitor speaker amps (internal or external) are turned up 2/3 or so. Turn the Aux masters to straight up (unity).

Set the Trim for each channel so that you are getting a good green light on the channel strip. I am not positive about that mixer but on most if you press the Solo for one channel the meters in the main section should show the signal on that individual channel. You want to see a good signal for each channel, one at a time, with very little clipping (red light coming on).

Now, adjust the aux feed on each channel to whatever level is necessary for the musician. Don't worry exactly where they are set and it is likely that each one will be set differently.

If you can't get enough level for them to hear turn up the Aux master to 2 o'clock. If not there, try 3 o'clock. If that doesn't work turn up the amps.

Unless you are way under powered you should be able to find a good level. Heck, your next problem is going to be too much stage volume

Don't worry about those send to aux knobs. They are for feeding you monitors with effects (reverb, delay, etc.).

PS: making these adjustments will also mean you will need to re-mix the house sound. It may be different if the Trims had been set very differently than a nice, full signal per channel.

Isn't this fun!

Yes it is fun!
We have all aux send master knobs on 12 0clock position, I have the Bass guitar on unity on the monitor on its individual channel and the piano about 10 clock I think on its monitor. Bass guitar and Piano is using same monitor. They keep complaining not enough piano or bass is coming out of it, I checked the monitor, the monitor is fine. I'm concerned about overly doing the monitor volume. Let me ask this, would it hurt if I turn the master aux sends up to 2 0 clock or would that be to much power to the monitor.
Thanks, Tim

[TimCha]

Another question just come to mind, if I have two monitors interconnected on the same feed, others we have 1 monitor behind the piano and a cord connected to it and ran it to another monitor behind the drummer. Would that cause issues with volume?

[bpalermini]

It should be ok to put two speaker boxes on one monitor amp channel assuming the speakers are 8 ohm boxes and have two in/out connections on them and your amps are rated for a 4 ohm load. You may need to turn up the volume a bit but in most circumstances it should be fine.

I have no idea if 2 o'clock is too much or too little. There is no magic in any of the settings but now it sounds like the musicians are telling you they can't hear themselves, but you are not wanting to turn them up enough so that they can.

Again I would advise that you take the steps I've outlined above. Get the Trims set correctly, make sure the mains and the amp levels are set high enough and then adjust the individual aux feeds to get enough for the musicians.

If it then turns out the stage volume is too high. Work on that. It sounds to me like you are anticipating a problem and so creating a problem.

[Tim Padrick]

Please re-read the manual. You are adjusting (or thinking of adjusting) a number of controls that have nothing to do with the aux (monitor) mixes.

[waynehoskins]

Originally Posted by TimCha

I'm concerned about overly doing the monitor volume. Let me ask this, would it hurt if I turn the master aux sends up to 2 0 clock or would that be to much power to the monitor.

No way to say for certain here. It all depends on system gain structure, monitor processing, monitor power amps, and power ratings of the monitors. If you're concerned about the monitors being too loud, include cabinet efficiency in the list.

Along with the distinct possibility that there's too much attenuation or not enough power in the monitor chains, another possibility is that there's too much other stuff in their mixes. If there's, say, 0 dB of screaming electric guitar in that mix, then there's no way they'll hear -10 dB of piano that's also in the mix.

Could be related also to EQ, mic placement, as well. If the piano mic is down on the low strings, while you may have plenty of signal, there's no punch to it, so they can't hear it. If the bass doesn't have enough above a couple hundred Hz, there's rumble but no notes, so they can't hear it.

That's the long way to say that there are many possibilities, and unfortunately it's virtually impossible to troubleshoot without actually being there.

[pdc]

Originally Posted by TimCha

Hello,
I need some general advice on basic monitor sound with a Mackie VLZ 32/4 pro. We have had some issues with not enough sound in the monitor. Let me locate a picture of the board so I can make more sense Couldn't locate a picture, but we have all main monitor feeds on unity and I turned up the Stereo Aux return knobs on unity, they were cut down hoping that would boost the monitor feed. I was thinking of turning the knob called "send to aux 1-2". Then on each individual section I put the monitor knob whereever they can hear themselves. Here is how we have the monitors set on stage, we have monitor 1 which is two monitors one on each side of the pulpit, Monitor 2 is one monitor beside the singers, Monitor 3 is behind the piano and another connection run to another monitor to the drummer. other words Monitor 3 is two monitors connected together. We have a cord running from the one behind the piano to the one with the drummer. Only main issue we have is the monitor behind the piano, the bass guitar or piano isn't heard that well in that monitor and we have the individual settings on 12 o clock position. Another thing we have done is press the prefader button to on all individual channels.
Thanks for your assistance!
Tim

1. Who sold it to you? Your dealer is there to help you. Some dealers train. Some charge for it. You are in need of training.

2. The stereo Aux RETURN is an effects return. It has nothing to do with the monitor SEND.

3. Send to Aux 1 & 2 has nothing to do with monitor gain. That is what routes the returns to the Aux 1 & 2, so that you can hear effects or a CD being played in your monitors.

4. You need to learn how to set up the gain of your console and your systems. There is more going on here than what can be answered. You should consult someone in your area to come set it up the best it can be given your limitations and then educate you on how to get started.

5. Run out and buy the Yamaha Sound Reinforecment Handbook and soak it all in.

[bcastle]

Another good thing to do is to make a layout of your system on a sheet of paper of your stage that shows how things are ran to the board. kinda like a block diagram of sorts. this lets you visualize you paths better. Learning the diagram of the sound board is a must too...We upgraded from a berhinger 16 ch board to a much more capable yamaha mg32. My sound guy felt a little overwhelmed but after I broke down what an individual channel does and what the other knobs do and dont do, he fells better. If you have to put painters tape or make little paper covers and put them on all the knobs you dont use, ie aux returns, effects, whatever. That way it limits the "options". I did this for a few weeks, and it worked great. If you dont use a particular function, just leave it alone.

[Tim Padrick]

If someone says he/she cannot hear something, ask what they can hear the best. Then turn that thing down. Repeat.