Worship Pastor feels "disconnected".

[hushwife]

Originally Posted by shuperman

I know when we started using in-ear monitors, some of the musicians had a hard time making the switch because they felt so isolated (which is common). So, after seeing the band Bela Fleck and the Flecktones who were using regular non-isolating Sony earbuds because they liked the ambient sound, some of our musicians tried the non-isolating earbuds. Just cheap run of the mill, over the ear, athletic earbuds. This seemed to appease everyone for a while... Eventually, everyone switched to isolating earbuds with ambient mics.

At least it still keeps the stage volume down.

I was reading through all of the replies to see if anyone had suggested this! I'm in a band which uses keys, acoustic and electric guitars, bass, and electronic drums, and there are 4 vocalists. (I'm the only singer who doesn't play an instrument.) We use IEMs, but we don't all use the same ones. In fact, our lead guitarist uses "cheap" non-isolating ear buds and loves them. So maybe having your worship team try different types of buds/monitors would help?

As a side note, I can't NOT comment on the using-your-IEM-in-only-one-ear option. I completely understand why it can be dangerous, and I agree. But... (true confessions!) that's what I do. And I love it because I realized that in the "isolated" IEM mix, I found myself singing like I was in the studio and not in front of a live congregation. (In other words, the "mood" didn't match... if that makes sense.) AND - and I know many of you won't believe me - I'm sure that my volume is low. Actually, I know for a fact that my mix is lower than anyone else's mix! I'm definitely a "less-is-more" kinda girl when it comes to sound, and if I can't hear something well enough, I always turn everything else down before I turn that sound up. I have also done the test where I put both IEMs in, adjust sounds as necessary, take one out again, and DON'T touch the levels. This works fine for me, and I feel that I'm getting the best of both worlds - I can hear not only my own voice in a way that's most helpful, but I can hear the voices and instruments of others. I realize this isn't a debate about using one IEM, but I thought I'd throw it out there just to say that you CAN make it work and might want to consider it as something to try.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by matthewah

Someone mentioned in this string putting the ambient mics near the WP's location on stage? Would this really be a better place for them to gain back the ambience of the room for him?

I know some guys running national tours that do this as a way to hear the audience response. Some of them get so good with it that you'd never know they are on in-ears and using ambient mics if you didn't know what to look for. Some of the bands also run little amps off stage or amp emulators for the guitars and bass, the big amps on stage are all for show, sometimes they don't even have any drivers in them to make them easier to move around. When you're playing in a different venue almost every night it can be very beneficial to minimize the variables.

[hwy2zion]

Hushwife said: I have also done the test where I put both IEMs in, adjust sounds as necessary, take one out again, and DON'T touch the levels.

I think this is key in making sure you do not blow your ears out.. if you set the level with both ears in -including pans- you can make sure that you're not over-compensating in loudness when you take one ear out. Your brain adjusts to the sounds/levels with both ears in, and then you funnel it into one ear. Good method!

[matthewah]

Anyone know of company that makes ambient mics built into the IEM cables that go to the ear buds? I've looked at Sensaphonic and Westone doesn't seem to make their SD1 product anymore.

[matthewah]

No one know of a company from my post above?

[stevelam]

Sensaphonic's 3d system seems to be the only answer that I have found. Sorry about not replying earlier.

[EricE]

I realize this individual post is old, but the thread seems active so (edit: OK, so maybe not)....

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

Suggesting that you may just have to deal with muddy stage sound in order to get the sound an individual wants on stage at least seems to potentially reflect a willingness to compromise many to benefit just one. That may simply be due to lack of understanding or awareness on the potential effects. I do think that part of the solution is educating the person involved on the potential trade-offs and perhaps even developing a method for them to experience other's perspectives. The final decision may still be the same but helping it be as informed a decision as possible seems a worthy goal.

What finally stopped opposition (from our drummers, more than anyone else) was having a band that is used to and knows how to use in ear monitors perform in our space.

The difference audio quality for the audience was night and day - and for our space it was a combination of them having the drum kit totally enclosed, as well as in ear monitors to keep the overall stage noise down.

"Hearing is believing" - and after that, the discussion changed from "I hate it" or "I'm not sure" to "How soon can we try it"

On a similar note, I attended a few audio sessions at WFX in Dallas (highly recommend, BTW) - and learned more about reflection and sound processing than I thought I would. I'm mainly an IT guy and visuals/video geek, and audio guy as a part time/secondary thing. But some of the discussions on feedback and audio architectural design (wandered into that one by mistake and ended up staying and learning quite a bit about acoustics) were very good. And I now understand why our room is flat and echo-y in the wrong ways - our ceiling clouds amplify the stage noise and disperse the congregational singing - the opposite of what you want! I haven't worked up the nerve to talk to our facilities people about that one yet (the solution are V shaped clouds, with the rear of the V reflective towards the congregation at a shallow angle, and the front of the v at a steeper angle towards the stage with absorptive material on them)

And for the OP - the discussions on round rooms were very fascinating - multipathing in them is impossible and probably a big part of your problems. If you want to PM me, I can send you contact information for one of the session leaders that would probably chat with you about some of the issues you are facing with some simpler things to try.

Needless to say, I have far more appreciation of sound issues. Oh, and using some of the stuff that was discussed I re-aimed my surround sound speakers and my home system sounds night and day better now

[EricE]

Originally Posted by matthewah

Anyone know of company that makes ambient mics built into the IEM cables that go to the ear buds? I've looked at Sensaphonic and Westone doesn't seem to make their SD1 product anymore.

From post #4 in the thread

What wireless IEM were you using? The Audio-Technica M2 & M3 wireless IEM's have an ambient mic option that's a lapel the clips to you, so the ambient source follows you. That might help.

That was a while ago so those models may not still exist (I haven't looked yet) but another possible avenue for you to explore.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by EricE

But some of the discussions on feedback and audio architectural design (wandered into that one by mistake and ended up staying and learning quite a bit about acoustics) were very good. And I now understand why our room is flat and echo-y in the wrong ways - our ceiling clouds amplify the stage noise and disperse the congregational singing - the opposite of what you want! I haven't worked up the nerve to talk to our facilities people about that one yet (the solution are V shaped clouds, with the rear of the V reflective towards the congregation at a shallow angle, and the front of the v at a steeper angle towards the stage with absorptive material on them)

Why is dispersing the congregational singing bad? Where congregational interaction is desired you often want to provide both reflective and diffusive surfaces around and over the congregation, and for mixed use rooms often in combination with some absorptive surfaces as well. And is the 'V' shaped clouds recommendation a result of assessing your specific space and needs or is that simply applying a 'one size fits all' approach? And of course the audio system design is part of this as well, minimizing the energy directed at the ceiling minimizes the related issues and can increase the ratio of the direct to indirect energy, thus typically improving intelligibility.

[EricE]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

Why is dispersing the congregational singing bad?

I'm not sure what you mean by "dispersing" - I could read it two ways. I'm looking to re-enforce and enhance the congregational experience (I'll admit I'm selfish - it's my favorite part of the service so I'm pretty big on the performance vs. worship thing and like it nothing better when the congregation is engaged and just as present or more present than the band)

Where congregational interaction is desired you often want to provide both reflective and diffusive surfaces around and over the congregation, and for mixed use rooms often in combination with some absorptive surfaces as well.

Exactly. It was funny, one of the panelists pointed out that to enhance the congregations perception and involvement, you (generally) want the reflective surfaces close to them, and the absorptive surfaces further away to control reflective and delay issues (which contribute to noise/un-clarity) - yet what do "we" (it was a session aimed at architects) do? We put carpet, padding, etc. near them and hard surfaces like ceilings away from them - opposite of what you want for congregational singing.

And is the 'V' shaped clouds recommendation a result of assessing your specific space and needs or is that simply applying a 'one size fits all' approach?

Nope - it was based on examples for particular spaces - of which ours closely matches. Our space is, in my opinion, pretty flat. Especially during congregational singing. I can see where by altering the clouds and then tuning the system to match the changes, we could enhance the congregational singing for the congregation, as well as toning down some of our stage noise and enhancing clarity for the pastor or other mostly speaking parts of the service. And it's not just the clouds...

Several of the sessions touched on the conflict between reverb being good for most music but horrible for speaking, and flat spaces reverb free spaces being better for speaking and rock/contemporary music - and that Church worship spaces often do neither well for various reasons. It was fascinating to sit in many of the sessions and get exposed to some of these ideas. It may be old hat for those such as yourself, but as I said I have a new appreciation for acoustics and my surround sound at home already has benefited from some of what I was exposed to

And of course the audio system design is part of this as well, minimizing the energy directed at the ceiling minimizes the related issues and can increase the ratio of the direct to indirect energy, thus typically improving intelligibility.

Yup, we recently had an acoustical engineer come in to help us re-tune our space, and not only do I understand why he did what he did better, but why he did some things like changing the positions of some of the speakers, replacing our DSP with a more capable unit to handle the delays better, separating out the subs to help with immersive sound during music but to cut back during speaking, etc. It's amazing what a little perspective brings - I now get it and that's cool

And he also caught some improperly done rigging that we had corrected. It's seriously scary stuff, people! You do not want a 200lb speaker crashing down, let alone on top of anyone!

And I wouldn't undertake re-desiging something like the clouds on my own - I would advocate we bring him back along with an architect that preferably specializes in designing with audio in mind. I have no doubt that by reconfiguring our ceiling, altering our flooring a little and tweaking a few other things, we could totally transform our space acoustically. It will probably be a dream for more than a few years - But I can dream!

If we ever do remodel and if I'm still around when that happens, if nothing else I will be able to ask more intelligent questions and make sure we are getting the best bang for our buck. For any other volunteers out there, if you have an opportunity to attend a local class, or a conference like WFX Expo, I highly recommend it.