In Ear Monitor Problems

[fishging]

We seem to have a re-occuring problem and wanted to get some feedback.

We run 8 aux send as monitor mixes to players on stage from our FOH mixer. Everyone on stage is on IEM. People are continuing to complain about sounds cutting out, sounds compressing, sounds distorting etc.

I have solo-d the aux sends and they are fine. We are using a combination of IEM from Shure (E2, E3, & E4's) to Carvin to JVC to just about everything in between.

My thought is that with 2 electrics, acoustic, keys, drums, bass, lead and backup vocals; that there is too much 'mid-range' frequencies trying to push through small drivers directly in to small ear holes, so something has to give...Thus the distorting, compressing, cutting out.

Does anyone have ideas or similar problems?

Thanks in advance,

Corey

[cmchamp]

Corey

Are you running those 8 aux sends directly to their in-ear-buds, or are you using a headphone amp at the user end? There's a missing piece.

If the signal is distorting without being too loud, there may be an impedance mismatch somewhere in the signal path between the board and their ears.

If you have a headphone amp, or other method of individual volume control, can you explain what that is?

Thanks.

Cory.

[fishging]

Ah, yes. I forgot a key piece. Must have been because it was close to midnight after a frustrating practice...i digress.


About half of the aux sends are sent to Carvin EM900 wireless IEM, other half are sent through Samson S-monitor.

Both players through wireless packs and hardwired through the S-monitors are having issues.

Let me add one more piece: It is not a constant problem. Normally the most complaints are when music has built to a high point. (i.e. during bridge, or big chorus)

[cmchamp]

1st suggestion, would be to turn down the aux send. Apparently you're saturating the wireless transmitter, thus the distortion, either on it's input, or in the RF modulation being transmitted. As for the Samson headphone amp, I suspect the same that the input is being saturated which is causing clipping and thus distortion.
I would also recommend a compressor/limiter on each send for protection.
C.

[fishging]

If I turn down the aux sends and the players complain about not being able to hear everything...

Is it possible that 3 guitars, 3 vocals and cymbals are all in a similar frequency range and that will kill/distort/etc. the sound?

[cmchamp]

That's kinda why they have a volume control on their end, isn't it?
It's your job to assure they're getting the cleanest possible signal, and the cleanest possible mix.
Have you tried turning down just one instrument? Have you listened to their end of the signal so you are familiar with what they are experiencing?
Possibly, what's happening is that they are expecting to have the tactile feeling they would with floor wedges, feeling the bass guitar and drums more.
I guess I would suggest either turning down the groups of instruments in the "mid range" area, or re-EQ them so they are not so much on top of one another.
Remember, when you're sending generic headphone mixes out being shared, you can't make everyone happy, but they can come to consensus as to what is acceptable and workable.
C.

[bladeaudio]

That would be my recommendation. Go listen to one of their devices yourself when they are playing to hear what is happening for yourself. This way you'll be able to pick out if its an individual instrument that is causing the problem or if its something else.

You are right, there is only so much volume you can send a device before it distorts. I've used the carvin in-ears before and they seem to not have much headroom before distortion occurs. It was a delicate balance to send them enough signal without it distorting.

[Gracetech]

Adding to whats been said so far about checking your signal flow. Keep in mind that your Carvin wireless is not of the diversity type. This means if your musician sways to the right and gets in a null then their signal will drop out. This is one of the things that bugs me about wireless iem's almost all of the units out there do not have diversity so you stand more of a chance of drop outs and poor reception.

crt

[fishging]

Thanks for the info/ideas!

We have dealt with cutout issues with the wireless systems, but it is annoying.

As far as the muddy/compressed/distorted sound that the players are hearing...if we were only having issues with the wireless IEM or the Carvin buds, then I would call it isolated to just that gear. But I am having the issue with multiple types of ear buds and hardwired in...???
And since it is not constantly, only during certain times in certain sets...???

I have solo-d the Aux sends with the set of Senheizer (sp?) FOH headphones we use and don't seem to get the same problems. Maybe I will try and use a bigger set of headphones for one of the guys on stage to see if that fixes the problem...may have to try it during practice...earmuffs during worship may be too distracting! ha ha

Thanks a ton to everyone willing to talk this stuff over with me!!!

[cmchamp]

That's what we're here for.
Just remember that the headphone amp circuit on the mixing board may be designed to handle very hot signals, but the input stage of the Carvin and Samson units may not be.
From personal experience, In-Ear or cans at FOH makes little difference if they are of quality build.
Also from personal experience, the Carvin wireless monitor systems have been less than acceptable for my applications and clients.
C.

[Josh Scott]

We have two different IEM transmitters. One of them runs on the consumer input sensitivity -10 db, the other the pro +4db. (I think that is the right way around if I am wrong someone will correct me.) A sound board is going to have the the higher out put. When we ran the same level into both units we would end up hitting the limiters on the cheaper transmitters. The transmitter limiter sound horrible and can sometimes give you the result you are talking about. If you can take one of the wireless packs plug your headphones while on stage and see if you hear what they are talking about. We had to turn the output down and that fixed our problem. I don't know if you transmitter have lights on them but make sure you are not hitting a clip or limit light.

One thing I have learned running monitors for our worship team is they forget they have a volume control, in fact I had our bass player tell me during rehearsal the bass was way to loud in his headphones and I needed to turn it down, I had to leave the monitor desk and walk across the stage to select bass on his Aviom and turn it down.

[BenHT]

I had to leave the monitor desk and walk across the stage to select bass on his Aviom and turn it down.

And since it is not constantly, only during certain times in certain sets...???

We've had that occasionally with our Yamaha powered monitors (MPS3s). I don't know how relevant it is to IEMs but you can only drive them so far before one sound (especially in the guitar/piano range) is swamped by another.
Another case is where the musician starts to hear the FOH sound and that makes them think they've lost certain things from their monitor. (We're just getting into IEMs now btw). The musican reports that the sound "dissappeared" for a while.

Anyway - my point is that less is more. If they keep asking for things to be turned up in their monitor then I ask/find out if maybe they actually need something else turned down which gives more headroom/less chance of distortion.