ProCo Momentum Digital Snake & Personal Monitor System

[Arlin]

Just curious,
Has anyone checked out the Momentum system?

It looks like a GREAT new alternative for digital snakes and/or Aviom monitors.
(Aviom killer?)

[Gracetech]

I'm totally feeling this system but i have to check it out and see how hard it is to integrate. It would be nice if they would develop a Yamaha card to streamline the setup. I'm hoping to check this system out for future expansion.

crt

[Arlin]

I talked with the ProCo reps at WFX Spring. They were really showing off the Momentum.
They mentioned that they were working on a Yamaha interface.

[GospelLighthouse]

Doesn't look like it gives each musician/singer the Aviom ability to tweak their own mix. Plus, I hate the engineering-geek naming of the hardware. Who intuitively is going to know what in the world 'mi8', 'mo8', 'mo8me', 'mrc', and 'Momentum as Ears' means?? When are design engineers in the digital music world going to get a clue that audio engineers and keyboardists don't want hardware with a slough of unintuitive naming conventions (and buttons) that are difficult to comprehend?

Just because something is 'new' doesn't mean it is truly revolutionary.

[Brad Weber]

I believe the Momentum system does give the ability for each musician to control their own separate mixes but instead of the mixing occurring at the controller, it occurs at the mix engine with the musicians using wireless remotes. I personally think that "mi8" for an 8 channel Momentum input, "mo8" for an 8 channel Momentum output, "mo8me" for an 8 output mixing engine, "md16ae" for a 16 channel AES digital card, etc. make as much sense as most model numbers, I had a pretty good idea of what each was without even looking at the product information.

[GospelLighthouse]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

I personally think that "mi8" for an 8 channel Momentum input, "mo8" for an 8 channel Momentum output, "mo8me" for an 8 output mixing engine, "md16ae" for a 16 channel AES digital card, etc. make as much sense as most model numbers, I had a pretty good idea of what each was without even looking at the product information.

This completely proves my point: Either you have to already be "in the know", or you're an outsider. I have no clue what "AES" stands for, and unless you have PRIOR KNOWLEDGE that "m" stands for momentum, "d" stands for digital (wait, what part of the momentum system is analog? Did I miss something? So why must they put a 'd' in for digital?), "16" stands for the number of channels, and "ae" stands for "AES", then it's NOT INTUITIVE.

I'm smart enough to understand language such as "take all stage inputs, plug them into a box located at the stage that digitizes the signals and sends them via CAT6 to either a box near the sound board or a card that you can plug directly into your digital sound board...etc." But when you say "engine", that's one of the most broad, nondescript terms in the universe. An "engine" can do anything from drive a car to compile a computer program. Again, IT'S NOT INTUITIVE!

Sure it makes sense to you - you're an insider with prior knowledge. But my pet peeve is the stupid "insider" naming conventions that only those "in the know" can understand, coupled with newbie-unfriendly websites where those same companies use all their insider lingo without any explanation! It's a big enough turn-off to me that I will stop considering their product. In short, anytime KNOWLEGE IS ASSUMED of the potential customer, then you're creating confusion, because you haven't answered the basic question, HOW IS THE POTENTIAL CUSTOMER SUPPOSED TO ACQUIRE THIS KNOWLEDGE, WHEN I HAVE NEVER COMMUNICATED IT? Bottom line, if the designers and namers cannot take two minutes to explain it in a way that makes it easy to understand, then how can I be assured they did a good job designing the hardware in the first place? For example, take momentum's "Momentum as Ears" .pdf layout. It doesn't answer the following "Personal Monitoring 101" questions:

• Does each listener get/need a tweak box to tweak their own mix? It the mixer capable of communicating with multiple tweak boxes?
• Why is the tweak box called 'mrc'. What in the world does 'mrc' stand for, and how is it pronounced, and why can't they name it something easier to remember?
• Why are there four rack-mount input units, each with 8 apparent mic inputs? Do you need a separate input unit with 8 inputs for each monitored output? If so, do you have to input each input signal into each input unit separately?
• Why does it say 'mi8 (input x4) when there are apparently 8 inputs per unit, not 4? And does 'mi' stand for 'me' in another language?
• Why does it say 'The DSP uses 32 inputs...to deliver 8 mono or 4 stereo mixes to the outputs...' It doesn't make sense that you need 32 inputs to create 8 outputs.
• What is 'the DSP'? DSP typically stands for 'digital signal processing' (not processor), and no hardware on the chart is labeled as 'the DSP'. What in the world are they talking about? Are they changing subjects and just throwing in random, meaningless words into their description?

Enough said. Momentum needs to make their products understandable to the average human being before the average human being will consider purchasing their product. Like Dave Ramsey says, "never buy anything you don't understand". And frankly, with the exception of full-time audio techies, most church volunteers don't have the time of day to pour hours into research and education for EVERY aspect of their lives, from studying the Bible to figuring out how to put a church sound system together, to educating yourself on catch basins so you can talk intelligently to the church parking lot contractor, to figuring out how to set up podcasting for the church, to your full time day job, to rehabbing a house on the side, to spending time with and providing spiritual leadership to your family, to mowing the yard and changing the oil on the lawnmower, to making your lunch so you don't spend your entire income eating out every day... Bottom line, church volunteers don't have time to 'learn the lingo' invented by companies like Momentum that don't have the decency to publish example equipment layouts that are truly EXPLANATORY, and who are too short-sighted to name their equipment with intuitive names and descriptions like:

• The Input Module: 8-channel input module
• The Brain: audio mixing unit and 8-channel mixer output module
• The Controller: wireless mixing controller

To drive the point home, I'd like to speak to you in a lingo you're not familiar with, but that I am familiar with, due to my job with the Army. Hopefully you will get the point.

CPAC is modifying CPOL to allow use of CAC beginning July 1. Your benefits will be posted for those on TAPES and ACQdemo. Make sure your IDP is updated in TED, and your ACRB reflects current training.

Now explain to me what I just said (without doing additional research on the internet - remember, you don't have time).

[Gracetech]

Last i checked this Forum was for Church Media which includes sound(Audio Monitors & Systems to be specific). If you don't know about sound then ask but if you just complain about it what do you think you will get out of it?


crt

[[Director] drew ryan]

Originally Posted by GospelLighthouse

To drive the point home, I'd like to speak to you in a lingo you're not familiar with, but that I am familiar with, due to my job with the Army. Hopefully you will get the point.

CPAC is modifying CPOL to allow use of CAC beginning July 1. Your benefits will be posted for those on TAPES and ACQdemo. Make sure your IDP is updated in TED, and your ACRB reflects current training.

Now explain to me what I just said (without doing additional research on the internet - remember, you don't have time).

While I am not in the habit of doing this, I will. I think you just made the argument against yourself. You know the lingo because you were trained to do your job in the Army (The industry that you are employed).

ProCo uses the lingo that they do to communicate with the industry that they hope to sell their stuff. We in the industry know the lingo because we have been trained to do the jobs that we have.

Most of the volunteers that come to CMN do so because there are industry professionals involved in the various forums who love to answer questions just like yours. All you have to do is ask.

[waynehoskins]

I too think it makes perfect sense. It's industry jargon, which is professional vocabulary. Just as I'd expect to be able to talk to any electrician or even actor about a Leko or an Electric, and sometimes such an out-of-style term as AP, so I'd expect to be able to use industry-standard terminology to describe an audio device. If you're an audio guy and can't make heads or tails of a 32-in, 8-out DSP that has AES inputs, I'd humbly suggest you learn .. just like I'd expect myself (if I were an army guy who couldn't make heads or tails of that string of jargon) to be expected to learn the army jargon in the army, or radio jargon in radio, and so on.

I don't want to push an argument here, but I would suggest that you be open to learning audio (and audio jargon) if you're going to be an audio guy.

I'd fault Proco's diagram of being a touch too simplistic, but that drawing appears to be page five of some number, by which point you've read the pages that tell you what each thing can do. Basic familiarity with audio will tell you that the setup uses four 8-input modules to get 32 inputs, which are matrixed to 8 mono or 4 stereo IEM outputs in the DSP or engine (terms are effectively interchangeable), and I'd presume "mrc" to stand for Momentum Remote Control, which makes perfect sense, and that you could use one per mix (the system wouldn't make sense otherwise .. you'd have Monitor Beach with not enough knobs).

All technical specifications are written in that same manner, if not more technical.

Equipment naming is also dome in the same manner: "mi8" makes no less sense than "MA2402" or "GL4000-848". It in fact is more intuitive than "HK-366" or "GVG-100N" or "CD80". Most technical folks will readily identify the first item as being a power amplifier by Crown, the second a wonderful analog board by Allen & Heath, the third a hard studio camera by Icky, the fourth a production switcher by Grass, and the last a dimmer series by Strand.

I'll shut up now.

[GospelLighthouse]

Boy, you guys are a sympathetic bunch...

Originally Posted by Drew Ryan

While I am not in the habit of doing this, I will. I think you just made the argument against yourself. You know the lingo because you were trained to do your job in the Army (The industry that you are employed).

ProCo uses the lingo that they do to communicate with the industry that they hope to sell their stuff. We in the industry know the lingo because we have been trained to do the jobs that we have.

Let me ask for clarification. You are saying that based solely upon your audio industry training, you intuitively know what a newly introduced product named 'mo8me' does? If I go into Guitar Center and look at the nearest tattoo-clad drugged-out-zombie-looking sales guy and tell him I'm interested in a "mo eight me", I'm afraid he might think I'm asking for a personal favor.

You also have to keep in mind that most churches are not mega-churches with full-time paid tech staff. Most have lay people that do the work of the ministry. Modern large churches pay people to do the work of the ministry, and unfortunately many of the parishoners can simply come on Sunday to be entertained and catered to (and if you don't cater to them they'll leave or cause a church split - been there, done that, got the t-shirt), but that's another discussion. The point here is that small churches should be able to do audio well and professionally without having to obtain the education that full-time pros have. For example, I can drive any car with only 5 minute's worth of familiarization. Sure, I'd need to go through professional training to learn to drive a tractor trailer. But we're a small church that drives cars, not a megachurch that drives semis. I want audio equipment that is easy to understand.

And another point. I understand the Army lingo, but don't necessarily agree with it. It is not necessary to use acronyms ad infinitum like we do in the Army. It is an often useless and confusing convention whose primary purpose (abbreviation) has been abused. I feel it is the same in the audio industry. I can understand the purpose for some lingo - obviously any industry needs descriptors for the unique aspects of that industry. But there is no defendable reason why a term like 'md16ae' has to be used when a more intuitive one can be selected.

Originally Posted by waynehoskins

I don't want to push an argument here, but I would suggest that you be open to learning audio (and audio jargon) if you're going to be an audio guy.

All you guys are missing the point! I'm open to learning audio. I'm simply against the unnecessary and confusing convention of hiding the audio functions behind useless naming conventions that have no rational basis. Audio is not about md16ae's and mrc's and 'tweak'ers. It's about inputs, outputs, controls, and processors. You're not asking me to learn about audio. You're asking me to put up with an audio company's poorly designed sales literature that is not very explanatory. I could, with proper understanding of this company's hardware, come up with much more intuitive names and much more explanatory sales literature.

I think Aviom's .pdf layouts on their website are much more explanatory than Momentum's. From Aviom's layouts, a novice such as me can clearly see that my musicians with their personal monitor mixer can only mix 16 signals. I get it! Why? Because Aviom TOOK THE TIME AND EFFORT TO COMMUNICATE! Any company in any industry that does not take the time to define its terms does not deserve my business, period, because life is all about communication, not seeing how high we can build our walls of 'insider'-ism.

But Momentum? Let's take a look at their website... following the link left at the top of this thread..(procomomentum.com)...we immediately click on the 'Ears' link because we're interested in personal monitoring systems. So we're taken here. There we see the following:

Momentum Digital Mix Engine
The Momentum Digital Mix Engine is “Ears” the way they should work, and the way they should sound!

Take the Stage, and do it without the wires. The “Tweak” controls 8 mono or 4 stereo mixes wirelessly from anywhere up to three hundred feet.

Do not maintain the status quo. Be Bold. Get Momentum and Take the Stage.

OK, we've just learned nothing about what this system does, except that I can wirelessly control mixes using something called a 'Tweak' (I suppose you industry guys intuitively understand what a 'Tweak' is, and I suppose a 'Tweak' is standard industry lingo. Sorry, I don't buy that.) I don't know where those mixes come from, or where they are sent. But maybe they'll give me some more info...

So since we're curious, we look at the three provided links, which say:

• Momentum mo8me
• Momentum mrc
• Momentum as Ears, a Personal Monitor System

Well, we can't make heads or tails of the first two. (I suppose you industry guys intuitively understand what a 'mo8me' and a 'mrc' is, and I suppose a 'mo8me' and a 'mrc' are standard industry lingo. Sorry, I don't buy that.) So we click on the third link, because 'a Personal Monitor System' is what we are interested in. The resulting .pdf is not very explanatory.

In fact, it leaves one with all the questions I raised in my previous post, which none of you guys have attempted to explain. Perhaps it's because you would have to do some more digging to understand what is meant, too? Or maybe because you'd rather use your internet time to rebuke a newbie for finding the lingo difficult than explain it?

Therefore, my point is this: Momentum did a poor job of explaining (making known) their system's capabilities, but they did an EXCELLENT job of hiding (disguising) their' system's capabilities behind their own company lingo (not industry lingo).

Originally Posted by waynehoskins

I too think it makes perfect sense. It's industry jargon, which is professional vocabulary. Just as I'd expect to be able to talk to any electrician or even actor about a Leko or an Electric, and sometimes such an out-of-style term as AP, so I'd expect to be able to use industry-standard terminology to describe an audio device. If you're an audio guy and can't make heads or tails of a 32-in, 8-out DSP that has AES inputs, I'd humbly suggest you learn

Again, if Momentum had clearly communicated that this is a 32-in, 8-out DSP that has AES inputs, then I could run with that. But they didn't! The .pdf simply calls their device a 'md16ae (mix engine)', where 'md' could stand for 'multi-device' or 'mega-digital' or 'monitor device' or 'mix device' or 'moniker dud'. You think this makes perfect sense?!?

[Gracetech]

It's like everything in life...you have to learn. If you ever stop learning you got issues. If i ever stop learning role me over cause i'm dead.

If you walked up to someone 6 years ago and asked if he had Avioms what reaction would you have gotten?

You have to name thing different from others so that you can tell them apart. If you ask for a monitor you could get an assortment of things from a computer monitor to a video monitor to studio monitors or maybe even a stage monitor. Separation and clarification helps to eliminate communication breakdown. I hope you can appreciate that.

As for the naming convention at hand i think its more intuitive than some but can you imaging having to tell someone over and over again to pick up the "ProCo 8 input digital processing unit with Ethernet and audio inputs". Having been in the military you should understand the usefulness of abbreviation.

Here is a break down of the components.

MO8 = Momentum 8 Output unit = This is just 8 outputs off of Momentum network
MI8 = Momentum 8 Input unit = This is just 8 inputs in to Momentum network
MRC = Momentum Remote Control = This is a remote control for the MO8ME
MO8ME= Momentum 8 Output Mix Engine = This is the mixer with outputs for the Momentum network

I hope this helps.

crt

[waynehoskins]

Originally Posted by GospelLighthouse

But there is no defendable reason why a term like 'md16ae' has to be used when a more intuitive one can be selected. ... The .pdf simply calls their device a 'md16ae (mix engine)', where 'md' could stand for 'multi-device' or 'mega-digital' or 'monitor device' or 'mix device' or 'moniker dud'. You think this makes perfect sense?!?

They're merely model numbers. That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. Somewhat mnemonically-named model numbers, but model numbers the same.