Mackie DL1608

[Jay M]

What do you guys think of this new mixer? I know it's not out until at least October, but the control app is already in the app store.

http://www.mackie.com/products/dl1608/

I personally think its brilliant! Maybe it's not ideal for bigger venues, but for bible studies, outdoor music events, retreats, Sunday school, and any situation where you don't want to run a snake I think it will be awesome.

Imagine how nice it will be to walk around the stage with your iPad in you hands and help each band member set and EQ their monitors. Once they are a happy you can go to any seat in the room to mix.

On the down side, I am a bit afraid of not having physical faders to ride, and there is always the risk of touching the wrong thing. It will be nearly impossible to mix without looking at the iPad whereas with physical faders you can keep you eyes on the stage and fingers on the board.

What do you guys think about this new product? I think the good will out weigh the bad.

~Jay

[pdc]

I am afraid of it because it is a Mackie. All of the other Mackie digital consoles our customers have purchased are gone. All of them have been train wrecks in every way. But, Mackie is making a push to get legit. We will see.

The other thing to consider is the life span of the iPad. If Apple changes the gen 4's shape, you will have to buy an adapter to make them fit. These types of adaptors are sold now so that v2 works in similar devices.

I would get a Presonus StudioLive, have a tactile interface, and be able to use it if someone kills or forgets the iPad.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Jay M

I personally think its brilliant! Maybe it's not ideal for bigger venues, but for bible studies, outdoor music events, retreats, Sunday school, and any situation where you don't want to run a snake I think it will be awesome.

Imagine how nice it will be to walk around the stage with your iPad in you hands and help each band member set and EQ their monitors. Once they are a happy you can go to any seat in the room to mix.

On the down side, I am a bit afraid of not having physical faders to ride, and there is always the risk of touching the wrong thing. It will be nearly impossible to mix without looking at the iPad whereas with physical faders you can keep you eyes on the stage and fingers on the board.

Some people seem to see themselves running all over with the iPad, others see that as a problem waiting to happen. I personally would be concerned in some situations of relying on a device that can be easily damaged, lost or stolen and because the iPad is required for operation would think a preconfigured backup device, or two iPads with one wireless and one staying in the mixer, would be almost a necessity for some applications.

There are also some concerns regarding longevity, both for the mixer itself and in terms of compatible iPads and their related support. When you start making consumer products that are pretty much intended to be obsoleted every few years integral to devices like mixers then that creates a bit different situation than has previously existed for those types of products.



Some of the operational concerns I have are:

1. No physical feedback like a detent at center pan (although a double tap is supposed to center it), 0 EQ level or 0 fader level. Also no tactile feedback at control limits, such as the full left and right pan, fader at max or min, etc. That may not matter to some but for those used to having such tactile feedback when mixing it can be a significant difference.
2. The videos I have seen, including those with Mackie personnel operating the mixer, have seemed to reflect some problems with swiping too far, having a swipe or button push not take, etc. Maybe the production version will improve that, I sure hope so.
3. Probably counterintuitive for less experienced users, but the level meter right next to the fader for each channel shows the pre-fader/pre-EQ/pre-mute level. Since the preamps are part of the mixer itself with physical level controls and inexperienced users may assume that moving the fader would affect the level next to it, I'm not sure that is a great idea. Just a signal presence/clip indicator for the preamp and post fader levels next to the fader might be almost as useful. Even better would be to be able to select the meters to reflect pre-everything or post-fader.
4. Having to scroll through aux and effects sends is awkward. Mackie has apparently added an area to the far right on the screen that allows you to select the aux controls directly but it is rather small.
5. No direct numerical entry for anything including EQ, gate and comp/limiting settings. It seems that Mackie has added readouts of the current numerical values, but you still have to use your finger to move a point or slider to make any adjustments and there is no way to do anything like set the high pass for X Hz or the limiter threshold to Y dBu/FS. Similar with effects, you can add more or less delay but you have no idea of what the delay value is.
6. Auxes are apparently now individually switchable pre or post but I do not know pre or post what other than the fader.
7. Presets and snapshots are being added, however recall safes are apparently limited to channels. There is apparently no way to not save or recall specific parameters, for example to recall everything but the faders.
8. Presets, which are individual channel settings, are stored on the iPad and there apparently will be a library of common Presets included with the app. Shows and Snapshots can be created on the iPad but are stored in the mixer. What is not clear is how Presets, Shows or Snapshots you create can be backed up, transferred or shared or if a connected iPad is the only option there.
9. Apparently no DCAs, subgroups or mute groups. Not surprising on a simple 'entry level' mixer but capabilities that people tend to associate with a digital mixer.
10. No stereo channels. Any stereo sources other than the iPad itself, which is only a source when docked, require two channels and there currently are no provisions for combining or linking those two channels.

I have to say that I do like that Mackie seems to be addressing many requested features. I am not so thrilled that they seemed to have initially focused on the 'cool' things and only after the initial marketing push and market feedback then started working on the more practical aspects. If it required users to identify that scene recall, numerical processing value indication, pre/post aux switching, etc. were required then that makes me wonder about the background and focus of the product development team.

Originally Posted by Jay M

What do you guys think about this new product? I think the good will out weigh the bad.

Difficult to know until we see what the final production model is and does. I am getting tired of manufacturers announcing new products and applying big marketing campaigns with it then being months and multiple delays before they actually have a deliverable product.

I think the DL1608 will be great for some applications. I do believe there may be considerable confusion regarding some functionalities since the DL1608 is basically a digital version of a basic mixer and thus does not incorporate some of the functionalities people may associate with digital mixers. A lot of people may be continually waiting for updates that hopefully address functions that are important to them.

[Jay M]

You guys do make some great points. The question is what will last longer- a Mackie product, or an iPad?

I'll assume that this product is for people who already own an iPad. So the cost is about $1000 + $100 for a decent router.

How much is an analog mixer with good EQ, and built in effects? Then when you add stuff that's only in a digital mixer such as dynamics, and graphic EQ on every output it seems to sit in the middle between a cheap analog mixer and an entry level digital mixer.

Brad, have you tried the app? I really does feel great. And they have added the ability to type in values for almost everything.

Stereo linking seems easy enough to do, I'd be surprised if they don't add it when it's released.

Strangely, there are no presets and no preset saving on the trial app. I assume that means that they haven't quite figured it out yet, or maybe it's all stored in the mixer.

No doubt that Presonus has an amazing product line, but they are more expensive, and you need a computer attached to have iPad/iPhone control. That's fine in some situations, but for small stuff, I really like to only need a router to be wireless.

What really appeals to me is that there is enough EQ onboard the dl1608 to really make the preacher sound good. That is lacking in most cheap mixers.

I'm enough of a geek that I might buy one just to play with. But I'll have an analog mixer in the trunk just in case

~Jay

[Frank DeWitt]

I have a mixer that allows me to walk around with a (in my case a tablet) and help people set things, also mix from every seat. (SAC) Your right, it is great, but not all the time. I walk the room during worship team so I can hear what the congregation hears. But not all the time.

When things are changing, when there is just one speaker and it has to be right right now I am back in the booth. I have instant access to real faders and to scene changes. I don't want to have to poke at anything. Just grab the fader and know what will happen right now. When the 4 year old is walking up to the microphone for his Sunday school play and I don't know if he is shy or a showoff I want a fader.

BTW You mention helping the WT set there monitors. We give each one a old laptop (Dell 10 minis) and earphones and let them set there own, It is great.

Summery, digital mixer, Great. Touch surface control, Great. Real faders a necessity

[Jay M]

What are you using to control the sac? Behringer, or something else?

Could you build a 16 channel sac for $1000? I think the sac system is amazing, but I'm a little afraid of it. A sac is usually made up of cheap parts connected by flimsy cables.

If you had simple needs, what your sac look like? In other words, How would you build a sac that competes with the dl1608?

Thanks,
~Jay

[wogster]

Originally Posted by Jay M

What do you guys think of this new mixer? I know it's not out until at least October, but the control app is already in the app store.

http://www.mackie.com/products/dl1608/

I personally think its brilliant! Maybe it's not ideal for bigger venues, but for bible studies, outdoor music events, retreats, Sunday school, and any situation where you don't want to run a snake I think it will be awesome.

Imagine how nice it will be to walk around the stage with your iPad in you hands and help each band member set and EQ their monitors. Once they are a happy you can go to any seat in the room to mix.

On the down side, I am a bit afraid of not having physical faders to ride, and there is always the risk of touching the wrong thing. It will be nearly impossible to mix without looking at the iPad whereas with physical faders you can keep you eyes on the stage and fingers on the board.

What do you guys think about this new product? I think the good will out weigh the bad.

~Jay

This sounds like a great idea, until some guy drives his truck past the the church with it's faulty ignition coil that's putting out massive amounts RFI at every frequency from 1KHz to 5GHz and blows your WIFI signal out of the water, and your dead until you can get the iPad to resync..... I don't trust anything based on the Internet or wireless, during a service, to many chances for things to go screwy. Even the wireless microphone the pastor carries, if it goes screwy, they can use the wired pulpit mic.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by Jay M

What are you using to control the sac? Behringer, or something else?

Could you build a 16 channel sac for $1000? I think the sac system is amazing, but I'm a little afraid of it. A sac is usually made up of cheap parts connected by flimsy cables.

If you had simple needs, what your sac look like? In other words, How would you build a sac that competes with the dl1608?

Thanks,
~Jay

I am not advertising SAC here but let me address the questions.

Our fader packs are CM labs Motor Mix. Two of them for 16 faders. Our system is a 48 ch permanent install so it doesn't compete with the DL1608.

Ours is based on MOTU 2408 for the interface, and FocusRite for the preamps. I completely agree A SAC system can be made from cheep parts connected with flimsy cables, but anyone who does has a system with cheep parts connected with flimsy cables. That is not good enough for Gods Word.

If I was trying to duplicate the DL1608 including portability and lack of expandability I would start with a good used wide screen laptop with USB3 capability. I would add the PreSonus Audiobox 1818VS for 8 in and 8 out, http://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-1818VSL and add a DigiMax-D8 http://www.presonus.com/products/DigiMax-D8 or a good quality used (Example Focusrite or PreSonus) 8 ch preamp. Add a MotorMix and go.

This would get you 16 in 8 out "board" in a 2U plus laptop, plus Motormix package. There is a company that sells a road case that holds 2U plus a laptop.

Price for above is about $1800
SAC comes into it's own when you need more channels either in or out. There is a fixed cost of interface + computer + software of about $1100

Each additional 8 ch of in and out is about $250 if you are willing to go quality used.

That means our 48 ch system would cost about $3000 to duplicate if you are willing to wait for quality used.

Frank

[Frank DeWitt]

BTW The PreSonus Audiobox 1818VS that I mentioned above comes with it's own software to use it as a live mixer and the software supports the same Ipad amp as the studio live. I don't know anything about it but that would make the above 16 ch system about $1300

That is all I know about it.
http://www.presonus.com/products/Virtual-StudioLive

[Tim Padrick]

It's Mackie, and digital to boot, = mediocre support and no support, respectively.

If your iPad dies or walks off, the show is over. One should have redundancy. The StudioLive offers support and redundancy.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Jay M

I'll assume that this product is for people who already own an iPad. So the cost is about $1000 + $100 for a decent router.

For a number of reasons I actually think that many DL1608 users, and the vast majority for any commercial applications, will probably use a dedicated iPad and possibly a backup.

Originally Posted by Jay M

How much is an analog mixer with good EQ, and built in effects? Then when you add stuff that's only in a digital mixer such as dynamics, and graphic EQ on every output it seems to sit in the middle between a cheap analog mixer and an entry level digital mixer.

That may be true, however the DL1608 is being marketed as a "digital live sound mixer" that "...redefines live mixing by combining the proven power of a full-featured digital mixer with the unmatched ease and mobility of an iPad®." So Mackie seems to be claiming, or at least trying to make people believe, that the DL1608 is a 'full-featured digital mixer' when it seems to be missing many features that people would likely associate with full featured digital mixers.

Mackie either can't decide what to make the DL1608, is it a cool toy for those who can't afford or would be unable to use the real thing to think they're pros or is it a product for actual pros, or they simply want it being perceived as more than it is. The Mackie DL1608 is a unique and interesting products that will likely have a large number of applications. It is a pretty amazing tool for what it, but people that think they are getting the quality, performance, functionality, capability, support, reliability, etc. of a $20,000+ mixer for $1,000 are going to be disappointed. And intentionally promoting such misperceptions in order to sell product is not something I support.

Originally Posted by Jay M

And they have added the ability to type in values for almost everything.

Stereo linking seems easy enough to do, I'd be surprised if they don't add it when it's released.

Strangely, there are no presets and no preset saving on the trial app. I assume that means that they haven't quite figured it out yet, or maybe it's all stored in the mixer.

What really bothers me with the DL1608 is that so many basic functions and capabilities that anyone with any experience mixing would seem to have addressed in the initial programming instead seem to be occurring after all the initial product development and marketing. If the device is capable of adding pre/post aux selection, direct aux controls access, stereo linking, scenes, etc. then why weren't such seemingly basic mixer functions included in the initial product and software development? That they apparently were not makes me wary about what other practical use and functionality aspects may have also been overlooked in the product development.

Another concern is the splitting of the control and audio hardware between multiple manufacturers and, in many cases, multiple vendors/suppliers. It's one thing to have to make two different pieces of hardware work together to add some optional capabilities, but another to have to do that to even be able to have a functional device. Add that to the commodity sales approach that will likely be associated with the majority of the DL1608 units and I sure hope they have a good user forum as that seems to be what manufacturers are increasingly coming to rely on for product support.

[pdc]

Originally Posted by Jay M

What are you using to control the sac? Behringer, or something else?

Could you build a 16 channel sac for $1000? I think the sac system is amazing, but I'm a little afraid of it. A sac is usually made up of cheap parts connected by flimsy cables.

If you had simple needs, what your sac look like? In other words, How would you build a sac that competes with the dl1608?

Thanks,
~Jay

SAC is only as good as the interfaces and the computer. SAC is just software. It is like buying the operating system of an iLive, SC48, or CL5 without everything else that makes it happen.

I never read forums where compliments are given to manufacturers because their software works. That is a given.

SAC cannot compete with the entry level offerings, because it is cheaper to build a console than a SAC system. SAC shines compared to higher channel and output count systems.

I like SAC, but I don't like how people push it, saying that it will do 72 x 72 and 25 consoles. First of all, I can do unlimited tracks with some current software and I/O now. The fact is, most churches are not going to do all of that, and should not have that silly carrot dangled in front of their faces. Secondly, studies have been done and presented at AES, stating that musicians do not benefit from having unlimited choices on stage, and that the brain actually works better when given less choices. Giving the musos full consoles is a distraction at times. I shrink that stuff down. This study was the basis for Aviom designing what it did into their systems.

Look at what is needed, and buy that. Don't buy for 5 years from now, because technology is going to advance exponentially, and we may be doing something very different by then. Don't EVER buy a system based upon consumer electronics. You never know what could happen politically or technically.