Drum Room

[Tommy077]

After much debate at my church, it has been decided to build a drum room in our sanctuary. I have a drawing for the room, but I want to see if anyone knows where I can get the 2 inch duct board that I can use to build it from. Unless there is a different material that I should use.

Thanks in advance!

[pdc]

Define drum room?

Are you talking about a 2x4 framed structure? If so, I would use mineral fiber. Mineral fiber is used in acoustic treatment situations, in place of your typical pink insulation, and then is either covered with drywall, QuietRock, or a drywall and Green Glue sandwich on one side, and Guilford of Maine cloth on the other.

Mineral has over twice the effectiveness of the pink stuff, and only catches fire around 2k degrees. It is itchy and should not be exposed. You need the good Guilford cloth type stuff to minimize airborne particles.

The problems most people create with a room are:
1. insufficient ventilation. A fan will not cut it. You need an air send and return. These need to be noise canceling.
2. adversely affecting the drum sound with the phasing induced by the close boundaries and reflections from plexiglass.
3. forcing the drummer to be cut off, changing his feel, his playing, and eliminating the band's ability to gel acoustically, dynamically.
4. the need for a better monitor system for the drummer
5. the need for noise gates, compressors and more direct mics on the drums, to compensate for the boxy, phased sound. You will now want less decay time.

The issue I have hated most, aside from the poor sound affects on the drums themselves, is that some rooms have been trapped too much, leaving the kits with a more pronounced attack, less sustain because it now has to be gated more than it did, and less body. The thing to do would be to experiment. I do not know how big you plan on building, but anything less than 10 x 10 is not going to allow the drums to generate any depth IMO.

[Frank DeWitt]

I attended a seminar at the Christian musician summit last year on miking a drum kit. It was put on by 3 pros. Someone asked about drum shields and the answer was "take the money you would send on the shield and give it to your drummer. send him or her for training. The other two agreed and then the one at the kit started to play. He must have played form 60 to 120 dB and he played equally well at all levels.

Fank


http://www.christianmusiciansummit.c...apel/index.php

[[Admin] osborn4]

Here's a series of blog articles Mike Sessler wrote about thier drum condo that may be of interest.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Tommy077

After much debate at my church, it has been decided to build a drum room in our sanctuary. I have a drawing for the room, but I want to see if anyone knows where I can get the 2 inch duct board that I can use to build it from. Unless there is a different material that I should use.

Do you mean like http://www.owenscorning.com/around/s...uietr-duct.asp or http://www.jm.com/insulation/perform..._microaire.pdf? Those materials would provide minimal acoustical isolation and are probably not the most cost effective or practical options for absorption, so it is not clear how you would be using them.

Originally Posted by pdc

Define drum room?

Are you talking about a 2x4 framed structure? If so, I would use mineral fiber. Mineral fiber is used in acoustic treatment situations, in place of your typical pink insulation, and then is either covered with drywall, QuietRock, or a drywall and Green Glue sandwich on one side, and Guilford of Maine cloth on the other.

Mineral has over twice the effectiveness of the pink stuff, and only catches fire around 2k degrees. It is itchy and should not be exposed. You need the good Guilford cloth type stuff to minimize airborne particles.

Is there reputable data supporting that mineral wool is over twice as effective, in terms of acoustical or thermal performance, than fiberglass? The data that I've seen seems to suggest minimal differences between mineral wool and fiberglass in regards to acoustical performance.

At least in my experience, from a practical perspective QuietRock, GreenGlue, etc. often do not provide a good return on investment. Getting the benefits of such materials and approaches is very dependent on the quality of the construction and attention to detail (sealing, avoiding bridging, minimizing gaps, etc.). The typical DIY construction, and many professional installations, easily reduces or even negates the potential advantages of constrained damping layer, resilient channel and other similar products and solutions. I typically find it better to keep things simple in terms of products and construction techniques and to instead focus on the issues like not having large gaps, addressing flanking paths and so on.

[pdc]

QuietRock does work, and it works well. It is about as effective as two layers of gyp board with the Green Glue. It is simpler. Yes it is heavier and way more expensive. But, if someone does not have the space for traditional construction, it has it's place. The other reason I would use it is moisture control. Holy cow, who is using Z-Channel for drum booths? I am talking about building a 2x4 frame, with QR on the exterior where there is no glass, and packing the interior voids with MW and calling it a day, with 40dB or so of reduction.

Green Glue is a defacto standard in acoustic space construction. I have used and/or spoken with Fran Manzella, John Storyk, Chris Pelonis, Bob Hodas and others, and they all make use of it.

As for mineral wool outperforming the fluffy stuff, it does on many levels. It has a better fire rating, it is more rigid, it is more dense. Density is a big issue. Sure, frequency response data may be close, but the amount of time the frequencies ring and the Q of the modes decrease with density. So, for a drum booth, with the source in such close proximity to the walls, density would be desired.

I like it because it is cheaper than the pink stuff, if you know where to buy it, and it is easier to cut and have it stay in place.

[pdc]

Originally Posted by osborn4

Here's a series of blog articles Mike Sessler wrote about thier drum condo that may be of interest.

I think that looks silly and I would rather have them play a V-Drum kit than construct that thang in my church. Come on. It is not about us. We are only there for an hour or so. Drummers need to get over themselves. The band is there to accent, not to show boat. When we all die and stand before God at the White Throne Judgement, acoustic drums are not going to be on anyone's mind. I think God might actually be sick of all of this silliness. The worship should match the abilities of the room. The people should dictate what that worship is, within the confines of the room, healthy hearing health of all involved. Any drummer that says he or she cannot play an electronic kit for a few songs each Sunday is not a talented servant with a pure heart. Guitarists that will not play through a Pod are the same. Come on people. Use samples, play quiet, or play electronic.

We come together to worship, but the band members come to the stage and isolate itself from one another. Classic. This truly is the "I" generation. Next all choir members will have their own mics and IEM mixes.

[bbrunskill]

How about a plexi screen to help take the edge of the cymbals and a training session with a great local drummer? I really don't like drum rooms.

[[Director] drew ryan]

OK, so I want to make a few disclaimers before I talk about drum rooms, shields and drummers. I hate small enclosed spaces to put a big sounding instrument like a drum kit in. I also think close micing and tight gates on drums diminish the fact the a drum kit is a singular instrument and sounds much better in an open room with just a few mics. (I have heard this done very successfully in certain conditions) I don't like adding 3 layers of reverb to achieve an open sound out of a kit that is squashed in a small room and miced heavily with a bunch of channel processing.

But, I do it anyway. Why, because that is what it takes to make the big expansive sound of a well played drum kit to sit in a mix that is limited to 92-94dB in a 9,000 seat round church. Part of our issue is that the closet seat to the drums is about 25' away. The furthest seat is about 125' away and 95' high. If we were to have the drums in the open air any cymbal splash would mask the vocals for about 80% of our room. Even if the drummer is being subdued in his playing.

The certain conditions that i referred to earlier usually include a proscenium theatre with lots of 22oz curtain legs and lots of room for the sound to go before it gets to the audience.

My point is this. Most of us work in facilities with less than ideal acoustics. We all have to do what is necessary to make the worship experience for our congregations the best that it can be. That frequently means using techniques that are less than what we would prefer.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by pdc

QuietRock does work, and it works well. It is about as effective as two layers of gyp board with the Green Glue. It is simpler. Yes it is heavier and way more expensive. But, if someone does not have the space for traditional construction, it has it's place. The other reason I would use it is moisture control. Holy cow, who is using Z-Channel for drum booths? I am talking about building a 2x4 frame, with QR on the exterior where there is no glass, and packing the interior voids with MW and calling it a day, with 40dB or so of reduction.

Green Glue is a defacto standard in acoustic space construction. I have used and/or spoken with Fran Manzella, John Storyk, Chris Pelonis, Bob Hodas and others, and they all make use of it.

The concept of constrained layer damping has been around for years, long before Green Glue. Don't get me wrong, Green Glue is a good product, they have good data for it, I have no doubt it does what they say it will do and they were brilliant in how they packaged and marketed it. But I was using the same basic concept with other materials 25 years ago and I learned it from those like Russ Berger who were doing that long before me. My real point was sort of what you noted, I think that things such as Green Glue and QuietRock may have their place in studio and some other applications, but they're probably overkill for a typical drum booth.

Originally Posted by pdc

s for mineral wool outperforming the fluffy stuff, it does on many levels. It has a better fire rating, it is more rigid, it is more dense. Density is a big issue. Sure, frequency response data may be close, but the amount of time the frequencies ring and the Q of the modes decrease with density. So, for a drum booth, with the source in such close proximity to the walls, density would be desired.

I like it because it is cheaper than the pink stuff, if you know where to buy it, and it is easier to cut and have it stay in place.

Again, not saying the mineral wool or rock wool are bad choices, just in many cases not that great a difference to worry about. And if you want density in similar materials you go to things like 6pcf fiberglass board.

What I'm really trying to point out is that in high end studio applications where you are closely controlling all the details and monitoring construction then the differences between two layers of sheetrock and two layers with Green Glue or Quiet Rock and between fiberglass and mineral wool may matter. But in typical DIY and commercial construction the differences are often negligible due to the overall construction quality. And I'm not talking bad construction, just common installation practices and field conditions. For example, if you're going to use Green Glue or Quiet Rock then to take advantage of those material and get the potential benefits from them you also need to properly seal the framing at the floor and any joints, properly seal any penetrations, adequately address any air transfer ducts or similar, use appropriate doors and door hardware and so on. Also consider that in a drum booth you typically have large windows that would have to be considered.


Regarding drummers, I agree that they should be able to help themselves greatly. However, I encounter many churches who have the perspective that they can't ask/get/make/force their drummers to control their playing and levels. In many cases it is simply the drummers not having the skills or the right people to teach them, in some it is simply the way they want to play and they are not willing to compromise. When a drummer is adamant that they will not even consider a shield, enclosure or booth, even if they've never tried one, and they also refuse to even consider adjusting their playing, that may be a sign that they, perhaps subconsciously, believe the people and church are there to serve and worship them.

[Gracetech]

I've been designing, using and not using drum control elements for over 20 years. I can safely say that great drums sound great no matter where you put them. Horrible sounding drums sound horrible no matter where you put them.

I have to say that putting drums in a well designed room can not only make the overall mix sound better but also unveil detail in other instruments/voices you will never hear with an acoustical kit on the stage.

Can you still make it sound good without the sound control? That is a definite yes. But at what cost? Volume, loss of detail, Pain?!?

Tools are tools use them as you will.

You can find High Density Fiberboard and Mineralboard in quite a few places around the interwebs. Also always call and ask if you don't see the size you need because not all places list the sizes they have or can get.

crt

Edit: I forgot Cotton Batts as well. I only use them where rigid boards are not needed.

[Tommy077]

Thank you Drew for your comment. I am like you, I don't necessarily want to put the drummer in a small, enclosed room, but there isn't too much choice here. We have a young drummer who is following a young drummer. Trying to get them to tone down some has not worked. We have the plexiglass shield, but the drum kit is in a corner. This is causing the sound to rebound off the shield, into the corner, and amplifying the drums on one side of the sanctuary, but you can barely hear them on the other side of the sanctuary. Of course this is also making me have to increase the vocals and other band members to override the ambient of the drums. And in the end, we have people that are saying they will leave the church if we don't lower the sound.

Basically, to try to keep everyone happy, we need to do something to decrease the ambient of the drums.