Need a new sound Board

[impedious]

Hi
I have just been informed that out that the sound board at our church is shorting out and is on it's last legs. I am the board member responsible so I have to find something that will meet the sound guys needs at a price acceptable to our board.

Our main sound guy says we need an unpowered 32 channel mixing board with built in gating, 6 monitors out, 24 mike inputs minimum but would prefer 32. If possible he would like a board with built in effects. I haven't been able to find a mixer board with all these requirement

I know there are both digital and analog boards. They all promise the world but what are the pros and cons of each.

We are a small church who just did a renovation on our building so I need to keep the price at a minimum. I hope to propose spending $1500 but I suspect I will be limited to $1000 or less.

I really don't want to get used. Our old board was purchased used and the sound guy thinks it was dropped prior to us buying it.

Thanks for any help you can give
Tim

[Arlin]

What sound board are you currently using?
Do you currently use any outboard effects or dynamics equipment?
What is your worship style... what sort of performances does the board need to support? (traditional hymn-type worship, contemporary 'rock band'-type, drama or play performances)

$1,000-$1,500 for a 32ch with some effects might be possible in your price range.
But, add in the dynamics processing (gates) you specified, and that forces either a high end analog board, or fully digital board, both of which are probably outside of that price range.

[pdc]

If you do not have the money to buy something good, then wait until you do. You will just be buying something else shortly, or having to repair someone else's issues.
There is nothing in the 1k range new in analog or digital that will give you what you want.

While remodeling, pull all new cable. It is cheaper to do it now.

Digital consoles are cheaper ALWAYS, take up less space, and have features you will not be able to live without.

[waynehoskins]

"The wrong gear at the right price is still the wrong gear." Always important to keep in mind, especially if you're involved in purchasing but not a designer/engineer.

You want 32 channels with gates, built-in effects, and 6 auxes for monitors.

At the $1.5-2K price point you can find an analog console with 32 channels and 6 auxes, but no processing or effects, and if you use outboard effects, you won't be able to use all 6 auxes for monitor mixes.

At the $3K price point you can find a digital console with 24 channels, 10 auxes, 2 effects processors, and gates and compressors on every channel. This console doesn't have automation that you could acceptably use within the course of a service, but it can be used for week-to-week changes.

At about the $8K price point is a digital console with 32 channels, 2 dynamics processors per channel, flexible bussing (groups, auxes, effects) up to a total of 16 outputs. This console does have usable theatre automation, if that's a consideration.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by pdc

Digital consoles are cheaper ALWAYS, take up less space, and have features you will not be able to live without.

Probably need to qualify this because as far as mixing an analog console will generally be less expensive than, and may be just as small as, a 'comparable' digital console. I think it might be more fair to say that a digital console will usually be less expensive and require less space than the combination of a comparable analog console in combination with comparable processing.

I agree with the others that you are likely not going to find a 24-32 channel console with gates on each input, integrated effects and a minimum of 8 aux sends (6 monitors plus 2 or more effects sends and you may want to account for ALS, overflow audio, recording, etc.) for $1,000 or even $1,500. I'm sure that's not what you were hoping to hear but Wayne provided a good synopsis of the general options and realistically you will probably have to either cut back on the requirements for the mixer and/or significantly increase the budget.

[impedious]

Thanks for the info
Our current board is a Mackie and is so old that a friend's son who is going to college to be a sound engineer says it is in his school museum.

As far as I know we are not using any effects other than an occasional high pitched whine.

We have 5 worship leaders who each have a different style ranging from 50's christian country and hymns to as loud and fast as he can get away with current christian rock. We also do musical plays which really shows how bad the mixer is.

We just replaced all our cable when we upgraded as well as isolating the power to our platform to prevent interference.

While I understand some of the sound guys needs, I don't have a clue what gates are and why they think they are so important. From what I see moving from analog to digital must drop some requirement that analog must have, but I don't know which. (I have been researching lighting and digital has made major changes there)

As for waiting till we can afford, I am hoping to convince the board to replace before our Christmas production, the last couple of years the sound guys have pulled their hair out trying to get the board not to crash.

thanks
Tim

[waynehoskins]

Originally Posted by impedious

From what I see moving from analog to digital must drop some requirement that analog must have, but I don't know which. (I have been researching lighting and digital has made major changes there)

To do something in an analog device requires using a function-specific circuit with physical parts that aren't part of another circuit. To do something in a digital device requires only working out the programming and incorporating that in the firmware.

It's substantially less expensive to incorporate a feature in a digital mixer than an analog mixer, once the fundamental bits are there. Because of this, most digital mixers incorporate more features than their analog counterparts -- or more correctly, they incorporate the features of analog mixers and common outboard processing equipment, and they cost substantially less than their equivalent in analog equipment.

For example, all digital boards of the last decade or more include gates and compressors on every channel, and they're usually not modeled after the cheap junky gear out there. A common compressor-gate pair starts at about $125 a channel, and better ones fetch $250 a channel per function. Even at just $250 per channel of outboard processing, that adds up to $6000 of additional equipment that might be required in an analog system, all of which are already included in a digital console.

The analog equivalent equipment to what's included in a digital console add up to quite a bit more than the digital console, even though the console price tag of the digital console is higher than the analog console.

[impedious]

So if we go digital it has the gates our sound guy wants. I was just at our board meeting and we approved $3000 to spend which after taxes etc will be about $2600 available to spend. What it out there with 32 channels, 24-32 inputs 4 subs, 6 monitors outputs.

My sound guy was looking at the Behringer X32 which comes out in December which was advertised at $2500. Has anyone heard anything good or bad about it?

[Arlin]

I must admit, the Behringer X32 looks impressive....
BUT, be warned, Behringer as a whole is a 'budget brand' and largely looked down upon in terms of quality and durability and even some questionable ethics by the audio community. That said, Behringer does make some useful, low cost products that can have their place. I have never used any Behringer equipment, but I have used some other 'budget' brands with good success.

Also, I would not put all my eggs in a product that has not been released yet. Even if it is released in December, it may not be readily available to you when you want (or need?) it.

FWIW, with a $3,000 total budget, I would probably recommend a good analog board.

Regarding the gating, I question their necessity. What is the reason for wishing for a gate? A compressor would be a more useful dynamic tool IMO. Maybe this is just the sound guy's way of ensuring that you get a digital board....

[andrewc2]

We just purchased the Soundcraft GB4-40 40 channel for ~$2600 from ProAudio.com. Granted it doesn't have gates or anything, it does have 8 aux outs

Also you mentioned taxes? You don't have a tax exemption? I thought all churches got one just for being a church?

[impedious]

Canadian, we get 50% only

[STEALMYBUCKS]

Two of the Presonus Studio Live 16.0.2 linked would work for your budget. They retail for $1300 apiece, so for $2600 you could have your 32 channels, with gates and the Presonus Fat Channel and also on board processing.

There is a steep learning curve going from an old analog Mackie to a digital sound board, so expect some headaches and a long training period. The Presonus is more user friendly to new converts than an LS9 or an iLive. Check out

http://www.ccisolutions.com/StoreFront/category/CWO.cat

It is a good webinar on the Studio Live series. I actually use CCI, give them a shot at the project, and before you call them, send me a pm and I can tell ya who to talk to.