Digital console latency

[pdc]

You guys that have digital consoles feeding IEMs and wedges. Do you have complaints or performance issues with the 5-10ms of latency your consoles generate? The Venue system I mixed on had like 7.5 from in to out and it freaked out the "hired pro" musicians. Then when we add wireless mic latency of 1.5 to 5ms, things can get waaaay out of whack. Any experiences?

[cmchamp]

Hmmmm. I've not measured either the TT24 we regularly use or the Yamaha O2R that's been retired, but as a trained classical musician, I can say I experience more "latency" issues in a local rehearsal hall from it's acoustics than I have from either of the digital boards above.
C.

[Arlin]

I am no expert, but just a quick calculation:

Speed of sound: 1125 ft/s
1125 ft/s * 7.5 ms = 8.5 ft

So, a digital board with 7.5 ms latency & IEMs, it is about equivalent to an analog baord (0 latency) & a floor wedge, assuming the performers ears are about 8.5 ft away from the wedge. A pretty good assumption, I think.

Also, here is an interesting read on latency effects:
http://www.lsbaudio.com/publications/AES_Latency.pdf

[pdc]

That's not quite the same thing. While the math may be close, the performance dynamic has drastically changed. We have isolated the what the performer hears audio via the IEM. Instruments are now put into monitor mixes that would traditionally be excluded. Now the effect is more noticeable. We have removed the possibility of hearing the other instruments directly as a result.

[TSA AV Crew]

We have a Yamaha LS9 with the Hearback system and our performers actually prefer the Hearback to your standard floor wedge. They said there is less latency. However, these aren't "pro musicians" and we go via ADAT. Don't know if the cabling has something to do with it.

[Gracetech]

Considering i use to run floor wedges with around 17ms of delay to make them sound fuller to the artist i would say that 5 ms is hardly noticeable and 10 ms will still only be slightly off and by the time you get to 30 ms you will only just start to have issues with your drummers if they can hear the acoustic sound as loud as there direct sound. If you some how end up getting to 60 ms then you will really start to have issues.

This is why i tell people that they need to look at the big picture with Digital systems. Make sure to connect digitally when you can, like for instance your Digital console to Loudspeaker management system needs to be a digital connection to reduce latency. Every where you can shave latency do so but don't get freaked out if your numbers are adding up to 10ms. Incase you didn't know your A/D/A converters are the first place to shave latency. Most of the time you can't shave latency any where else except maybe get rid of those ridiculous wireless mics that just sit in mic stands the whole time.

Just so you know most of the Digital consoles are getting into the picoseconds region these days so it's only a matter of time where that latency is reduced.

I've mixed monitors for some of the best musicians in the world with digital consoles with around 8ms of latency in them and have never had a complaint yet. I'm sure if they scrutinized it they could hear it but if they can't hear it i'm sure not going to tell them.

crt

[BradLyons]

Something is going on there----I have a Venue DShow with (16) Aviom mixers and ( PQ Controllers, feeding a variety of wired and wireless in-ears as well as stage monitors. I have mixed for some major concerts and artists as well as recorded these events through this sytem with never a complaint (or even noticing myself) any kind of latency at all.

[BradLyons]

okay that was supposed to be the number EIGHT---why did it make a smiley face?? LOL

[pdc]

Digi has about 7.5ms, so I doubt you would have complaints with that alone.

[BradLyons]

WHat kind of distance were you running in terms of the BNC cables? I have a 200ft run from the Stage I/O to FOH, and then 200ft back via Digilink cables to my Pro ToolsHD system, recording 80-channels and mixing in real-time to my video feed---I visualize no latency as well as hear no latency. I have an AVIOM and a PQ feed down in the studio so that I can take the mix from the board and link it up to my PTHD--they are in perfect sync with each other. Hmmmmm

[pdc]

That is Digi's number. That is about the same as the Midas XL8. The lower published numbers of 3ms are sans converters which we kind of need for the silly things to work. PT HD itself from input to output is 3.3ms.

The whole point of this post was to show some people I referred here just how silly the argument is.

I quit my analog Midas and Crest V12 long ago. I didn't do it for sound quality, but for longterm service in my market. I got tired of shipping modules back and forth, etc. There are no real techs here in KC that know large format consoles.