Group/Sends Routing for Hearback

[waynehoskins]

Originally Posted by rschultz

I think the guitars will always want their own guitar amp/monitor because of effects. Ultimately I would like to get rid of those too and go IE, but those would be the last to go.

I thought we went over that already.

With electric guitar, the amp is a part of the instrument: the instrument includes guitar, pedalboard, tube amp, and loudspeaker. It's a critical part -- not because of effects, but because the amp itself creates the sound that we've come to know as "electric guitar". Getting rid of that is like getting rid of your subs: you'll wonder why it sounds like crap.

And you have a month to do all of this?

Start simple. Install the PA, console, outboard, all of that. Make sure you have the ability to drive wedge monitors. In a perfect world, you will want four wedge mixes available. If ever any outside groups come in or you do concerts or anything, you will need it.

I've also seen far too many places that have bought an Aviom (or similar) system to be high tech and to fix a problem, only to find that the band don't end up using it. Then it's an expensive paperweight that's put in the closet. Make sure that the Hearback is the right solution to whatever problem you have now. If possible, try to rent or borrow one before you buy it.

You can't just change up the world on your band ("okay, no more guitar amps"). Especially if it's a lousy change.

[rschultz]

Wayne,
Yes, I understand that. Like I said, they will be the last to go. My acoustic amp has a line out that I use, it sounds fine. Guitar -> amp -> DI -> snake. I have run with the amp speaker off... although I generally need it on to hear my guitar. Same goes for the electric, use the amp to create the sound and send it out the back... but turn the speaker off and use IEM for monitor.
Like you suggest, all this won't happen at once. It will be a process, one thing at a time. But the goal is to reduce the stage noise as much as possible.
Believe me, I know what it's like to not have a monitor for my guitar... one of the most frustrating environments to play in when you can't hear what you are playing.
Thanks for the suggestions.

[waynehoskins]

Originally Posted by rschultz

Wayne,
Yes, I understand that. Like I said, they will be the last to go. My acoustic amp has a line out that I use, it sounds fine. Guitar -> amp -> DI -> snake. I have run with the amp speaker off... although I generally need it on to hear my guitar. Same goes for the electric, use the amp to create the sound and send it out the back... but turn the speaker off and use IEM for monitor.
Like you suggest, all this won't happen at once. It will be a process, one thing at a time. But the goal is to reduce the stage noise as much as possible.

*facepalm* It doesn't work like that.

Your goal of reducing stage volume is admirable, but the guitar amp and its associated loudspeaker are an integral part of "electric guitar". Electric and acoustic are inherently different. Acoustic (and electric piano too) rely on clean linear amplification: the amp, when there is one, simply makes the sound bigger. Electric, however, the amp and cab are as much a part of the instrument as the strings and the frets. The sound of the instrument, its distinctive character, come from overdriving the grids in the amplifier stages, and how that reacts with the cab. The sustain of an electric is also from an acoustic-feedback path between the cab and the strings that the player manipulates as he plays.

Tube amplifiers don't work without a load; they have to have a load of the right impedance.

It's a fundamentally different creature than any other instrument (Rhodes excepted, because it's essentially the same thing). You can't treat it like bass or acoustic or piano.

Put a mike in front of the cab. That's how everybody else has learned it has to be done.

[cmchamp]

It's not just the electric guitar and it's associated loudspeaker, but the impedance loading of the input stage, the gain stage and output stage. Each amplifier has it's own coloration, especially tube amps.
Guys who play with solid state amps can easily adapt to using a Pod product, for instance, because they are familiar with the solid state sound.
Guitar players who have grown attached to the tube sound, well, need a tube amp with a tube input stage and a tube output stage.
Trouble with the tube is, it's difficult to find a tube amp that doesn't require high gain to get the sound the guitar player is familiar with.

I'm searching for a thread from another site regarding low wattage all tube practice/stage amps.

[cmchamp]

Ok, here is what I found.
Woodcross Amps

[waynehoskins]

Those are cool. I've seen their site before. I'm lucky: my music minister or worship pastor or whatever you call him is a guitar genius and also always on the quest for the perfect tone at low enough power. I think we looked at that site a while back .. wanted to try out some of them but never got around to it.

Under no circumstances should an electric guitar need more than 15 watts of amplifier behind it. Honestly, it shouldn't even need more than 7. One of the things I want to do sometime is build a 1-watt guitar amp, mostly for the fun of doing it. 15 watts of electric guitar is blankity-blanking loud.

Our guitar guy is currently playing a "retro" practice amp combo with a pair of 6V6s in it. Not bad. Some day I need to finish up the single-6L6 job I built up a few years ago, see if I can get that sounding good. 7 watts, again, is plenty loud.

[rschultz]

Wayne/Cory,
Thanks for the detailed explanation, makes sense now. This is actually what we've been doing... mic'ing the electric amp and line out for the acoustics. Now I understand WHY this works best.
Ryan