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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waynehoskins View Post
It's really good at making a good PA sound like crap, from my experience. But it's reasonable for tuning by ear.
agreed... the 260 has a built in RTA that can help in the tuning. Every time i've used a PA i try to make it work with the auto EQ for kicks, but always end up doing it by ear.
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Old Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, 07:29 PM
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Slightly off topic, but this sounds similar to the work I do with heater controllers. They use PID logic to control heated processes via thermocouple input. Anyway, most newer controllers have an auto-tune... that is absolute junk. I end up tuning the PID manually about 10 times faster than it can do it Sound familiar?

Thanks for all the advice guys. The GL2400 sounds great, but by the time we add in the GBX 260, we're up to $3000... and I haven't even bought other necessary upgrades. That matrix on the 2400 looks very cool. But suppose I can't swing that kind of money. What abou the Yamaha MG24/14fx for only $900, I've read good things about it.

Just for clarification, we are moving from a temporary setup/teardown location to a permanent location (yeah!). Interesting thing about this new building is that the ceiling is a bit low for a sanctuary. About 10' in the back, 15-18' at the front. I'm anxious to see how the acoustics are in there.

Thanks.
Ryan
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Old Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, 08:04 PM
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I don't know anything about the yamaha, but if there is any time you can squeeze a little more money into the AV system, the time is now. Usually when you're moving into a new location there's gonna be a large budget that will likely require some sort of loan... It's way easier to get a little more money now than it will be to do big upgrades later. Rather than trying to decide on the mixer now - let's discuss the other upgrades you need and what budget you have to work with. Then we can try to come up with a package for your budget - maximizing everything(for your budget anyway)
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Old Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, 08:08 PM
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a side note - I'm jealous that you're moving into a permanent facility. We're in a local movie theater, setting up and tearing down each week for the last year. We had been permanent for the previous ten years, and needed something bigger and our lease was gonna get raised a ton. After three years of fruitless searching, we ended up settling on the movie theater. It's working fine, but there are alot of challenges - not to mention all the technical things I wish we could do. Being mobile really limits your possibilities. I am very excited for your church...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, 08:21 PM
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Our church has been "mobile" for 13 years. My family has only been there for 2 years, so I don't know the half of their "longsuffering". Regardless, I feel for you.

Evanston? What state?

The main necessary purchase is some subs for our 2 mains. The 2 mains are real nice, but can't carry the bass so we go direct on the bass, which means I can't control it. I don't know how much these are off the top of my head. Also will put some satelite speakers in the nursury/other rooms, but those are small and cheap. Other than that, I anticipate needing rear speakers due to the building acoustics that we don't use now... although we may have some smaller ones that we don't use. So, aside from the subs and the board... all the other stuff are things that I don't know if we need or not... amps, conditioning, compression, etc. Oh, and we'll need a new snake too... $500.

Thanks
Ryan
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Old Wednesday, December 3rd, 2008, 09:24 PM
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$500? is that the budget or the snake? What is the budget you're trying to hit?

You could save $500 by going with the driverack PA instead of the 260, and it's not a huge stepdown - at least in your application. The driverack(or other processor) becomes a necessity when you start adding subs. You can do all of your crossovers (splitting the bass and upper frequencies for the subs and mains) as well as eq'ing for your room. With subs, tuning the system to the room becomes even more important, because the low frequencies can get out of hand quickly.

What do you mean by "rear speakers"?

So based on the last post you need:

2 subwoofers(or possibly one depending on the room - another place you could save money) - what mains are you using? this could help us with choosing proper sub(s)
Snake
Mixing Console
Speaker management (dbx driverack XXX or similar)
Power conditioner/sequencer maybe
equipment rack?

do you need new mics?

if we start fleshing out all of the various pieces, then we'll be able to figure out where it is best to spend the money you have available.
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Old Thursday, December 4th, 2008, 06:57 AM
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I don't know exactly what we have off the top of my head. I'll have to write down all the specs on Sunday when I'm there.

Until then, a little more info on the new place. The sanctuary is roughly 50' x 50'. The back ceiling is only about 9' tall. The front ceiling is only 13-14' tall. The center aisle goes from corner to corner in a diagonal fashion. This low ceiling concerns me, I wonder if the low frequencies will bounce around, while the high frequencies will get damped out quickly. From what I hear from you guys, low frequencies are harder to control anyway... the low ceiling only makes this more difficult.

Thoughts?

Thanks.
Ryan
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sunday, December 7th, 2008, 06:20 PM
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Cross

Here is what we have in our system currently:

Mackie CR1604-VLZ - 16 channel, 4 aux
ATW-R11 VHF Diversity Receiver - for wireless mics
Marantz CD Recorder
Marantz Stereo Tape Deck and CD player
DOD 512 Reverb/Effects
US Audio Whirlwind DA-2 - Distribution Amp
Ashley DUal Channel Compression/Limiter CL5ZE
Ashley GQX Series 3102 Graphic EQ
4 wedge monitors and amps for these.

The plan is to keep most of this rack together to use as a portable system - youth, weddings, on location, etc. We can/will pick certain components out of that to use with the new system.

Our FOH speakers are Yorkville U15P - powered speakers. The subs we are looking at purchasing are the Yorkville LS720P - about $1700/pair.

At this point, we are leaning toward the Yamaha MG32/14FX - $1100
This is essentially a 28 mono channel board with 6 aux and 2 effects sends.

I also like the DBX driverack 260, it has some really nice features in the auto-eq, auto feedback elimination, auto-gain control, etc.

The A&H GL2400-24 looks great, but it has less channels, no FX and double the money... we just aren't sure we would use the matrix nor need the 2 sweep-able mids. If we outgrow this in the future we'll upgrade then... it's only $1100 and we'd probably use the yamaha for something else anyway. If I could find a used 2200-32, would that be better? A rough google search didn't turn up anything.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks
Ryan
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sunday, December 7th, 2008, 09:14 PM
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Of course for an extra $600, the A&H ZED 428 has 28 channels (24+2), the 2 sweepable mids, USB out and a 7x2 matrix; no effects though. The thing I'm not crazy about on it is the inputs are on top instead of the back.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wednesday, December 10th, 2008, 06:39 PM
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I would go with the ZED mixer - the sweepable mids are something you need - you just may not realize it. Once you have them, and see how much they can help, you'll never go back. We use a post fader aux send for our effects output - we only use reverb - and then we just bring it back in on another channel. I personally like that better than some of the boards with built in effects sends and returns, because it's easier to kill the reverb quickly if you just have to pul a fader down.

I don't really like the looks of the yamaha board... It seems like the classic trick of - make the specs look like it has alot of things, but they don't all work at the same time. for example- you said it has 6 aux sends and 2 effects sends. In reality, it has 4 aux sends and two sends that can be aux or effects. I didn't look through the whole block diagram, but i would imagine the "14 total buses" that it claims on the feature list isn't really accurate... Also - I don't really have a clear idea of how the room is setup, but it seems like you could go stereo easily - and to limit yourself to mono seems like a bad idea. When we went from mixing in mono to a stereo mix, everything seemed to blend better and we got alot of compliments.


I don't know much about the yorkvilles - but others on the forum sing their praises plenty. Maybe one of them can chime in... Seems like with the ZED console, the DBX 260, and the set of 4 yorkvilles you'd have the makings for a pretty rockin system. It just needs to be tuned properly.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wednesday, December 10th, 2008, 07:39 PM
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Prochlea,

I agree with your sentiment about the Yamaha. Since my last post I have studied the specs more. The phantom power is only selectable in 8 ch blocks in the MG32. And you are right about the aux sends. We don't have condenser mics yet, but if we mic the drums, we will. The FX seems like a gimmick that I wouldn't use much because it's so limited compared to an effects unit. I have pretty much eliminated the yamaha at this point.

Question: I don't understand your comment about mono mixing vs stereo. Is the yamaha mono and the A&H stereo? How do you mix in stereo?

So the question for me is really 2400 or ZED, and how many channels. Of the 4 models I am considering (2400-24/32, ZED 428/436), only $800 separates them ($1700-$2500). The USB seems interesting, the 436 would be a good value at $2000. But would I wish I had spent an extra $500 down the road?

Ryan
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wednesday, December 10th, 2008, 08:25 PM
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regarding the stereo - I didn't look at the yamaha that closely - but you said it was a mono board. I would take that to mean that it has a single output - not right and left. I know the AH is stereo - meaning that it has a right and left output.

stereo mixing - Each channel strip has a pan knob that can go right or left. On L-R boards(there are LCR - left,center,right - but we won't get into that) a pan knob full left, will give you 100% of the signal to the left output(speaker)... a pan knob centered will give you 100% to both outputs. as you start to turn the knob left, you slowly lose the signal in the right speaker... make sense?

So what you can do with this, is to mix up the way the pan knobs are set... I always leave the lead singer, lead guitar, and bass centered, but you can vary a little bit with backup signers, other guitars... if you have multiple drum mics, you can pan them a bit... same thing with piano, etc... you get the idea. This gives you a wider sound stage, and while it will give a slight variation based on where you are sitting, it really opens up the sound, and makes it sound more like it's coming from the band - as opposed to coming from a spot in the middle of the two speakers.

As for the mixer - for my money - i'd spend the extra and go for the 2400, because I could see you potentially wanting the extra matrix outputs and the ability to make the aux sends pre/post at will. The zed only has aux 3/4 switchable pre/post. I question how well the USB would work, and if it would work the way you want it to. It sorta sounds like it's more for effects than recording, but i didn't fully investigate it. Personally - I'm against recording directly to PC, because I don't trust it in the long haul. I know they use it in pro-recording, but they have way more powerful computers than we church folk have, and they're not usually making a 30-45 minute recording with no breaks. Plus they're professionals, and are less likely to make a mistake than a volunteer operator. No offense meant here...

If you can swing the extra 500 here, I'd do it. I believe in buying slightly more than you think you'll ever use... at a growing church, your band is probably going to grow to, as will your needs in a sound board. I never really thought we'd outgrow a 32 channel board, but now I'm looking at 48 channel and more digital mixing/recording systems... (we'd never be able to do it unless we somehow found a sweet permanent facility). All of that said - you also have to be a good steward of the money God blesses you with... so look at your funds, and see if you can squeeze a bit...
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