FOH Speaker Recommendations

[Jacb Robinson]

I am trying to do some persuading and get a PA overhaul in our church. I have gotten a few estimates, but none of them have impressed me all that much, they all seem to have some issues; not powerful enough, questionable components, lack of experience, etc... So after some thinking I would like to present the idea of me and some other very diligent volunteers doing the install; my thought is that we spend the same amount of money, but get better equipment. Maybe I am a little naive, but I think it is very possible if we have a professional to do final training/tuning of the system after install. My biggest hang-up on this plan is choosing a pair of FOH speakers and subs along with amps and processors.

Our goal would be to stay under $10k. The mixer (32 channel A&H GL2400) and new wiring takes up about $3200 of that which leaves $6800 for wedges, amps, processors, mains, subs, drum mics and a few other things I may not be thinking of. We already have good mics a cd recorder, really the only peripherals I think we need to purchase, outside of what is required in the revamp, is a drum mic kit and a couple of compressors. I think compression will help our recordings and even out the volume level when my pastor/father-in-law (scary!) speaks, he changes from a whisper to a yell a little too frequently.

Here is a little about our church:

We have a very lively worship band with both contemporary and traditional styling.

2 Guitars
1 Bass
Full Drum Kit (acoustic)
Keyboard
8-10 Vocal mics
2-3 Spoken word mics

Our sanctuary is about 35' x 70' (wxl) Seats about 200 when full, but normally 120 -150

The stage takes about the front 16' of the sanctuary all the way across and is ≈18” tall. The ceiling is sloped from regular 8’ walls on each side to about 12’ in the center.
I think that if the boxes are short enough ≈30” or so we can get away with flying a center cluster, here is where it starts to get away from me. Dispersion patterns and spl levels are a little above my head, just from doing some reading I was thinking that two 60x40’s might server our longer, low ceilinged, sanctuary, but I have no experience with this at all so any recommendations would be very much appreciated. I would like to stick with passive speakers, but I am not stuck on that. I have seen several places with the Crown XTI 1000’s for $300 that seemed like a pretty good deal if I went with passive speakers. For monitors I was thinking maybe 2 wedges in the middle for praise team, a wedge on stage right for stringed instruments, a person monitor like the TC Helicon for the keyboard/P&W leader and the drummer on headphones. This is just a quick thought there is no science behind my ideas.

I apologize for the lengthy post, but I am trying to eliminate as many reply questions as possible, I am sure that I am still missing a lot of info, so I will try to be prompt on answering any questions back to me. I appreciate all your input and please know that I am not being totally naive on this, but I just haven't been able to find a trusted consultant yet. Although I do know that professional on site assistance is required in regards to training, tuning, and rigging. Maybe this will come from some other local churches with more experienced sound techs on staff.

Thank You for all your help,
Jake


p.s. how do I go about changing my display name? Somehow I forgot the "o" in Jacob and so it appears my name is Jacb.

[waynehoskins]

Hi and welcome.

Shooting from the hip, it looks like your space is too deep and short for a single set of arrays to cover the depth well. It seems like a good candidate for a distributed system with multiple delay zones.

There's a (presumably) stereo speaker system in there now. Is stereo imaging important, or would a single point-source array, a center cluster, be more appropriate?

Either way you slice it, I think you're looking at compact loudspeakers. A few that come to mind are EAW's UB series and Renkus's smaller TRC/TRX series boxes. Another possibility is EV's "Vari-Intense" horn box, whatever that's called: it has an asymmetrical horn to put more energy higher up in the pattern, at the long-throw angle, to help in low-ceiling spaces.

I presume you will want subs as well. Since your stage is short, I might look at a couple of double-15 subs. EAW, Community, Grund, and others make some decent ones.

I'm not sure how much system processing you have, need, etc., but that's one nice feature of the XTi series amps, they have a decent amount of system processing features built-in. I think they'd be a good choice. Other good options would include CTs (which can take PIP cards to add processing features) and QSC's CX series install amps.

All of that said, the most important thing to do at this phase is to define the performance goals of the system. Rather than thinking individual components, think "we want to be able to X". From that, you or a system designer can put together a system that meets the expectations. BTW, let me steer you toward hiring a consultant, system designer, design/build group, or some such. Someone who can help you work out realistic expectations and build an excellent system.

[Frank DeWitt]

I can't help you with the speakers, but you also mention drum mics. I took a course on micing a drum kit at a worship conference this spring. I figured I would learn what set of mics to buy and then start saving money for the mics and to add another 8 ch to our mixer. The seminar was given by 3 pros. A drummer, a sound guy, and a producer. They all agreed that for live sound with a worship team you don't need or want more then 4 mics and probably 2 is just perfect. They recommend one in front of or in the kick, and one next to the drummers head (usually on his left.) (You pick up what he hears. He plays to get the sound he wants so it works well. I tried it and was amazed We now have great drum sound in the house.

I just noted from your pix that you have a drum cage so this mic setup may not work well for you. I'll post it anyway because others may be able to use it.

Frank

[cmchamp]

Jacob
Try Edit Profile to change your display name. Not sure, elsewise, one of the mods can change it.
I sent you a PM. I'm 3 hours north of you, and I think it'd be worth a face to face to help you walk through your plans, as well as let you know what's good practice and not.
C.

[Les]

Where are you located? Perhaps we can recommend some good professionals? You want to make sure that your new system actually serves all your needs.

I'm all for people tackling stuff DIY but you also want to make sure this is the last system you put in and a professional company can help do that. A professional may be able to come in and tweak the system, do a little EQ, time alignment, etc but if it's the wrong system for the room and the speakers are not placed properly no amount of tuning will fix it.

That being said, I agree with Wayne, due to your low ceiling height you'll really need a distributed system approach with your main speakers and another set of delays.

I'd have to model the room for "exact" specs but I'll give you my shoot from the hip recommendations as well.

I'd put 4 TOA HX-5's tucked as close to the ceiling in either a splayed center cluster (one up front and one halfway back) or the same speakers placed about even left to right with the existing chandeliers. Not sure which approach I would use without modeling it.

Of course those wouldn't be the only speaker choices, there are several others too but I'm continually impressed with the TOA's and their relatively low price is a nice bonus.

For subs, it depends on how much you like. I like bass, I don't always crank it but I like having it there when I do want it. Some options for relatively compact models would be the EAW FR250z. They really are not that large (much smaller than a double 18" but they have the output of most double 18" subs in their price range).

For wedges I would try and keep the small and sight lines low. I don't think with that small of a stage you need wedges with rip your face off output. I would look at the Radian RPX-108 or if you need to save a little money the DB Technologies Arena 8 would be a good option.

Amp wise I do like the XTI series amps.

For your mixer I'd really consider looking at the Presonus Studiolive 24.4.2. Then you have all your built in comps/gates/FX and it's a street price of $3k. By the time you add up gates/comps/fx/cabling/rack/etc you're right at the same price.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by Les

For your mixer I'd really consider looking at the Presonus Studiolive 24.4.2. Then you have all your built in comps/gates/FX and it's a street price of $3k. By the time you add up gates/comps/fx/cabling/rack/etc you're right at the same price.

He is looking at 32 ch and at mixer AND wiring for $3200

Frank

[Les]

Originally Posted by Frank DeWitt

He is looking at 32 ch and at mixer AND wiring for $3200

Frank

I saw that, but I still think the Presonus is worth a look.

For what you get with it (dynamics, effects, & recording) you can't get a similar analog option for a better price.

If you figure an inexpensive snake (which I assume is part of the wiring) for that many channels and the length they would need would be minimum $500 - $600 then what's left over in that $3200 isn't even enough to buy 1 Presonus ACP-88 or other similar priced 8ch comp/gate, let alone 1-2 FX units and a USB recording pre.

Then you have all the wiring which adds a little cost.

My point was by the time you make the A&H as fully featured as SL24 you've spent way more money.

The question for me really is can you get by with 24 channels? For a church that size I don't see why not...

BTW: I have nothing against A&H, we have several A&H boards in our inventory, but nowadays they are more likely to sit at the shop in favor of the SL24.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by Les

BTW: I have nothing against A&H, we have several A&H boards in our inventory, but nowadays they are more likely to sit at the shop in favor of the SL24.

Very interesting.I looked at and rejected the SL24 for our church but for different reasons.

You are showing that while it lacks some features of most digital boards it works very well as a replacement for an analog board, plus dynamics, effects, and recording, (and portability of all the above). You have helped me understand it's niche. I guess only Jacob knows if he can live with 24 ch

Thanks
Frank

[Jacb Robinson]

Tonight after service I took some more detailed measurements, these are much mor accurate that the approximations I posted earlier.

The sanctuary is 74' long and 40' wide

the stage is 18' deep and 40' wide

so the mains would need to cover an area of 40' x 56'

the ceiling is 12' 9" from floor to peak

and on stage it is 10' 11" to the peak (18" tall platform)



-Jake

[SamG269]

I would agree with looking into the studio live as well. Especially looking at how many channels you need.

"We have a very lively worship band with both contemporary and traditional styling.

2 Guitars
1 Bass
Full Drum Kit (acoustic)
Keyboard
8-10 Vocal mics
2-3 Spoken word mics"

[cmchamp]

Jacob
I'll have a few different options, with SPL and ACLONS plots when I come down on 8/16.