Help with speaker installation

[[Admin] osborn4]

I agree. We went design/build and did not regret it. Most of the time it's a more affordable option. And if you can get references, especially from a church that's about your size, it should work out.

[Frank DeWitt]

The Pro in my story is a design build guy.

I think the real test is not design build / consultant, but how do they chose speakers for you and do they have a good track record.

Given that the software is there to show that if you put this brand of speakers in these locations (or one location) you will have good sound at all of these seats I don't trust anyone who doesn't use it for a permanent install.

It needs to be said that the software is not enough. It also takes skill and experience but I would be very nervous about anyone who didn't use the software.

Frank

[cmchamp]

But as with anything software related - garbage in = garbage out if the person doesn't know what they're doing.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by cmchamp

But as with anything software related - garbage in = garbage out if the person doesn't know what they're doing.

Complete total agreement, and the reason for my last sentence.

"It needs to be said that the software is not enough. It also takes skill and experience but I would be very nervous about anyone who didn't use the software."

Frank

[cmchamp]

For what it's worth, I know a regional design/build guy that uses no software, does things the old fashioned way with a slide rule and compass on blueprints and I can say I've never heard a room he's done that sounds bad.

[Frank DeWitt]

Originally Posted by cmchamp

For what it's worth, I know a regional design/build guy that uses no software, does things the old fashioned way with a slide rule and compass on blueprints and I can say I've never heard a room he's done that sounds bad.

So what your saying is he models the room. I am OK with that.

I still have my slide rule and my lead holders (and my Curta calculator) but I use software for my day job. (Mechanical designer)

Frank

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by Les

Sorry, not to start a debate on this (please) I think there are several valid points for different methods, just wanted to point out that a Design/Build company can be just as good as a Consultant only approach.

Jim does note that some Contractors are well able to serve the needs of many churches and what is really at issue is the quality and capabilities of the firm in supporting the client and providing effective solutions. And how that is best achieved is very dependent on the situation. For example, if you need an entire system designed and installed within 30 days then that schedule may preclude a design/bid/build process even being practical. Conversely, if it is early in a long term project and the system designer will be working with other designers and consultant for months or years, then design/build may be more difficult to implement and separating out the design/consulting aspect may make more sense.

I also believe that a Consultant and Design/Build are not mutually exclusive. With a design/build approach, having a well defined and documented basis for bids and knowing that someone will be watching can allow for much more focused and competitive bids. A consultant can potentially help a church in assessing what they want and need, documenting that for bidding via a design/build approach and then continuinging to help the church in different ways throughout the construction process. In fact this is an approach I promote for many churches as when using a design/build approach it may still be beneficial (for the church and potentially for the bidders) to have a 'third party' to help guide the church through the process, assist in their defining the project goals and requirements to allow valid 'apples-to-apples' bids from multiple design/build bidders and assist the church in assessing that the work performed is up to 'industry standards' and/or is what was contracted.

Originally Posted by osborn4

I agree. We went design/build and did not regret it. Most of the time it's a more affordable option.

"Affordable" is probably the correct term as that suggests cost more than value and that is where churches often have difficulty with design/build bids as they can easily compare relative costs but may have more difficulty comparing relative value (or even real cost, as in the actual final cost plus the cost over the life of the system).

It definitely varies based on the scope of work, schedule and other factors, but my experience is that in many cases the total cost is not that different for the various approaches. I happened to have have several projects over the years where due to various reasons both a design/build and design/bid/build approach were considered at different points and in most cases the total cost was about the same either way with some actually having lower total costs with design/bid/build. One common reason for this is that the time a design/build firm invests prior to be awarded a contract is 'at risk' or potentially uncompensated. If you know you are competing against others and that price will be a factor then you understandably may limit the investment you are willing to make before knowing you'll get something out of it. And any time invested is likely to invlude gaining some advantage over the competition as part of the motive, that is simply a product of a competitive bid where price is a factor. In comparison, a consultant is compensated for this effort so they are able to invest much more time and effort in establishing the needs and goals of the project and developing solutions that are directly responsive. And to do so without the risk of committing to an equipment and installation cost prior to that effort. Separating the design aspect often means more time invested up front to gain a better definition of what is wanted and how to effectively achieve it, which can in turn reduce the cost, and/or increase the value, for the subsequent equipment and installation.

Expanding on that, it seems to surprise many people to find out that as a Consultant it is quite common for less than half of my effort to be involved in creating the actual systems drawings and specifications. The majority of my time is typically spent in the initial programming/needs analysis effort, developing an general conceptual solution and in services during construction and commissioning.

[ForHim07]

Once again thanks for the info. I spoke to the finance commitee and mentioned the different ways to go. I'm now looking to see who's in the Massachusetts area that could come to the church.

Toby