Main Sound Re-enforcement upgrade

[andrewc2]

Hi everyone, my church is soon looking to enter the next phase of upgrades which is a new mixer, speakers, and amps/speaker management

I've been looking at this set of equipment, and I as wondering what you're options might be on this stuff.

Soundboard Soundcraft / Spirit GB4 - 40 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ive_Sound.html

Speakers
JBL PRX635 (4) http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PRX635/
JBL (Subs) PRX618SXLF (2) http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PRX618SXLF/

OR

QSC KW153 (4) http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KW153
QSC (Sub) KW181 (2) http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KW181/

Speaker Management
dbx DriveRack 260 http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DriveRack260/

I've chose the JBL's because they're a tad cheaper, and we've had the JBL EVOi 324 system with 4 speakers, and their own controller.

Any Yeah! Good choice or BOO! Bad choice will be gladly accepted. I know a common answer when it comes to the speakers anyway will be hire someone which is what I'd like to do if possible, but I'm not sure if it will be.

Also I wasn't sure how the Subs get connected in, can they go into that dbx or would we need something else to go with it as well.

Any overall production suggestions are also welcome!

Thanks
Andrew

[Brad Weber]

Andrew,

As it often does, it seems to come down to whether your goal is to buy the best equipment for your money or to get the best solution for your money. The first can be done without considering the application, the latter requires knowing enough about the situation to assess the potential result and how well it fulfills your goals. Assessing anything in respect to the application is a bit difficult to do without knowing anything about the space, your services, your goals, what you already have, how you envision mounting the speakers, what power provisions are in place and so on.

[cmchamp]

Yup, I'm with Brad.
What's the application? Porta-church, fixed install, flying, rigging options, room dimensions, room acoustics, type of worship, orientation of open mics to speakers, etc. etc. etc.
C.

[AirFader]

I have installed two systems with the (now former) HPR153 speakers and use the K-series for portable work, with excellent results.

Right at face-value, keep in mind that, if you're not going to be able to have the system really professionally-tuned, the DriveRack 260 is going to be quite a bit of overkill for your application. I see it installed often, with almost every feature bypassed. What's the point?

You can run full-range signal to all of the K-series speakers you list. They have active internal crossovers built-in. You will simply need to switch the top speakers to "Ext Sub" so that they roll-off around the sub's frequency.

The DriveRacks are still worth a look - check out the DriveRack PX which may be a better fit for your application and may provide the features you need. You don't get a crossover with that unit, but with the K-series internal active crossovers, it's not necessary. You still get EQ and other control features, for retail of $399 versus $999.

As Cory alludes to (and I'm sure you've read before) if you design the system yourself there's a risk you won't be happy. If you FLY the system yourself, there's a risk someone will die. Plan accordingly!

(These are just suggestions and may not match your intended use. Be sure to carefully research your options and seek additional advice.)

[andrewc2]

Hey guys thanks for the replies so far. I just saw these now, but have to run for about an hour, so I'll try to answer some of your questions when I get back.

[andrewc2]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

Andrew,

As it often does, it seems to come down to whether your goal is to buy the best equipment for your money or to get the best solution for your money. The first can be done without considering the application, the latter requires knowing enough about the situation to assess the potential result and how well it fulfills your goals. Assessing anything in respect to the application is a bit difficult to do without knowing anything about the space, your services, your goals, what you already have, how you envision mounting the speakers, what power provisions are in place and so on.

Alright, space is like a baseball diamond, and the pastor is at home plate. Stage area takes up at bout 20 feet in the front, then we have 4 sections of pews, that start small and get longer as you head towards the back. The last pews end right before our balcony overhang. I would say thats 10-15 feet above ground level with chairs 3 rows deep all about 6"-10" rise on each. Our sound booth is set in the center of that balcony equivalent to 2nd base to continue with the baseball diamond. We have carpeted floors throughout stage included. As well as we have probably 30 foot drapes as a backdrop for the stage. Current speakers 2 are hung on the first set of beams, probably 35 feet off the ground and about 5 feet into the stage area, The next set are on the 2nd beam which I would guess are 15-20 feet in front of the first set, as I'm assuming there are about 15-20 feet between beams. which would make the area about the 75'-80' from the front of the diamond to the back wall.

We're a non-denominational with a semi-contemporary worship time. Some days its very traditional others can be very contemporary. For instruments we have a baby grand piano, drums, 1-2 guitars, and bass, with organ or strings thrown in occasionally. We seat about 500 per week. But have capacity up to 800-1000 i believe

Goals is really just to update the system, what we have now was what we got when we built the building in 2002. And most of our bigger equipment we would like to replace before it dies, rather than when it dies!

Currently we've got a Mackie SR24-4, which goes through gfx eq and into the JBL EVOi.net speaker controller, which goes out to the 4 JBL EVOi speakers. We've got some compressors and limiters for our vocal mics, and some distribution for recording. The speakers are also not currently delayed. Everything does sound pretty good, its just old.

We'd like to adjust the speaker placement, preferably moving the speakers so they're in front of the stage not set 5 feet in. Ideally flying the speakers rather than hanging them as our current speakers are set up.

For power we've got our own sub panel in room, I could not tell you what the rating is off hand but next time I'm in I'll take a look. These dimensions are probably off but should give you an idea what I'm talking about. I've included pictures which also should give a good idea as well.

Originally Posted by cmchamp

Yup, I'm with Brad.
What's the application? Porta-church, fixed install, flying, rigging options, room dimensions, room acoustics, type of worship, orientation of open mics to speakers, etc. etc. etc.
C.

Mics to speakers ratio, the first set of speakers is about the line where our praise team stands. But typically the problem is the podium mic which is about 5 feet ahead of those speakers.

Hopefully the above answers your points, if not let me know I can address them..

Originally Posted by AirFader

I have installed two systems with the (now former) HPR153 speakers and use the K-series for portable work, with excellent results.

Right at face-value, keep in mind that, if you're not going to be able to have the system really professionally-tuned, the DriveRack 260 is going to be quite a bit of overkill for your application. I see it installed often, with almost every feature bypassed. What's the point?

You can run full-range signal to all of the K-series speakers you list. They have active internal crossovers built-in. You will simply need to switch the top speakers to "Ext Sub" so that they roll-off around the sub's frequency.

The DriveRacks are still worth a look - check out the DriveRack PX which may be a better fit for your application and may provide the features you need. You don't get a crossover with that unit, but with the K-series internal active crossovers, it's not necessary. You still get EQ and other control features, for retail of $399 versus $999.

As Cory alludes to (and I'm sure you've read before) if you design the system yourself there's a risk you won't be happy. If you FLY the system yourself, there's a risk someone will die. Plan accordingly!

(These are just suggestions and may not match your intended use. Be sure to carefully research your options and seek additional advice.)

Alright I understand what you're saying about the DriveRack PX, but that only has 2 outputs + subs, so I'd need 2. I would like to think that we would use the extra features of the DriveRack260, but I could not say that for sure at this point.

I definitely hear you on flying it ourselves and I have always been behind having someone who's experienced in flying speakers do it.

I'm going to try and see if we can get someone to come up with a proper system, but they may not go for it. So I'd rather be prepared.

Hopefully that's enough information if you need more let me know.

Pictures are also high resolution so they may be slow to load.

[waynehoskins]

System design hasn't changed much in the last 10 years. The biggest change in the last decade has been digital consoles, which are replacing their analog equivalents quite rapidly.

The good installs from a decade ago are still excellent. The bad ones still suck.

Two other consoles you should check out before deciding on the GB4:
Allen & Heath GL3800
Yamaha LS9/32

The GL3x line is nice; we have a 40-frame GL3300 at my church and it's fabulous. I like the old GL4K and the ML line as well.

The LS9 is a popular medium-format digital console for many applications. It's worth consideration. If I knew about if five years ago when we were first looking at redoing things at my church, it would have been a major contender. There's still a good chance I would have gone analog still, but the LS9 and its big brother the M7 would have had a chance.

[andrewc2]

Well is not as much a replacement for newer technology speakers, but to get away from the proprietary system that the EVOi speakers contain. You can't use any speakers other than the original EVOi's as they have inline communications from the speakers to the controller. Last year we had to send one speaker amplifier out for local repair as JBL no longer supports them. There are no inexpensive replacement speakers either to provide us with a backup. so we're out 2 speakers if one goes, due to the room setup.

Also something I should have mentioned was this phase of replacement was given a max proposed budget of $8-10k Which limits us from going into the preferred digital line of consoles.

[waynehoskins]

I still prefer analog. I don't mind digital, and it certainly has gotten better over the years. The major advantage to digital is that the amount of analog gear it replaces would add up to more than its own cost, plus it's small and lightweight comparatively.

I hadn't read about JBL's EVO line until now. It's certainly interesting, but I don't know that I like it yet. I think I'm still partial to conventional loudspeaker systems rather than ones that are "intelligent" and "self-aware" and readjust their delay and other processing all on their own. Eek.

I'd focus on the PA itself first, I think. There are lots of conventional loudspeakers that might be contenders, both self-powered and not.

If you're going to set this PA up like the previous, with two main loudspeakers and two delay speakers, you want at least the DR260 so you can set in the right alignment delay. The DRPA only has about 10 feet of delay, which isn't enough for anything but aligning components of an array to each other.

[andrewc2]

Very true, digital does replace a good number of devices, but most of the things it would replace don't need replacing at this time so even there we're still good.

Yeah when we had the one speaker go that really made us look towards ditching it. But, as long as all the pieces are working fine, it is really a good powerful system. As I said we actually aren't using the Delay feature currently, I'm guessing just because no ones looked into using it.

With the DB260 could we put subs as input 6,7 and set them up? Or would we need something else? I'm not even sure we'll get subs, but I figured it would good to include if we were to go that way.

[andrewc2]

Also something I was thinking with that stage setup where would we put subs if we got them?

[prochlea]

I used to work at a place that had installed several EVOi systems when they first came out. I think every system we installed had to be taken out for repair at one point or another. It was not a product that lasted very long, and it does not surprise me that JBL doesn't support them at all anymore.

I'll let some of the other guys spec out some speakers for you, but at first glance, I'd say you should be looking at a center cluster - and also - given how high you'd be flying them, I'd go with passive speakers rather than powered. After I had to rent a lift several times to pull down those EVOi's, I haven't been a big fan of flying powered speakers. You're less likely to have a problem with the speaker than any of the electronics, so troubleshooting and repairs should be easier in the future.