New auditorium -- speaker advice needed

[terryd]

We're building a new auditorium and need further advice on speakers. We're a traditional service only (no bands, no high energy music) but do have some instrumentalists including violin, piano, organ, brass.

We're looking at the following:

TOA HX5
EAW
AudioWorx M80i

Building dimensions: 21h x 90w x 45d

40w x 25d "classrooms" immediately behind the seats (on left and right side) will have retractable walls (fabric covered) and will only be used when main aud. is full. It is understood that these "rooms" will require smaller fill speakers on delay.

Is our best solution to have a wide horizontal dispersion speaker to cover the majority of auditorium with some side fills to cover the left front and right front areas? or to have a tighter dispersion speaker to cover each section individually?

Stage is approx 5ft back from where likely location of speaker install
Front rows will be approx 8-10ft from front of stage

Acoustical treatment will be added to back / side walls of course.

Thanks for any input on how to best cover this area and speaker recommendations.

Thanks,

Terry

[[Admin] osborn4]

There are those here who can and may help with this.

But honestly, if you're building a new sanctuary, I'd invest the money in either a audio consultant or get a design/build firm on board right away.

The earlier in the design process you involde audio and acoustic consultants, the less expensive any needed changes will be. It's much easier to chance a line with an eraser than to move a wall with a crowbar or sledgehammer.

[cmchamp]

TerryD
Welcome aboard.
There are those of us who can help, unfortunately, at this point in the game, which is really late, you'll be choosing speakers for a possibly poorly designed acoustic space.
Regarding acoustic treatments, who has specified what?
For intelligibility, and clarity, the fewer sources, the better.
Joel is correct, the sooner the appropriate consultant/designer can be involved, the less expensive it will be down the road.
If you have a traditional service, and are interested in maintaining that traditional service for years to come, I do have some reservations regarding the cloth covered room dividers and the "acoustic treatment" on the back walls.
For that space and a traditional service, there will be plenty of absorption in the pews and people. There will not be enough diffusion to break up the echoes from the walls. Though they are broken up quite a bit, there will still be quite a bit of flutter in the room for acoustic style worship.

[terryd]

Thanks for the reply.

My apologies as I didnt give enough info. As to bldg -- it is ALREADY complete with inside work being done now (sheetrock, paint, etc).

We did engage local sound company who has come in and recommended Audioworx or EAW speakers for auditorium. However, we feel pressured with "this is the only speakers that will work" statements, hence my posting here. Just wanted to get others ideas.

At this point we havent looked at WHAT treatment which will be put on the walls...so this is open.

We appreciate other thoughts / opinions.

Terry

[cmchamp]

So, basically, you're working with a 45x45x21 sanctuary.
I'm gonna do something I generally don't do, recommend Bose™ 502's.

EAW is a standard, but doesn't necessarily mean anything without a model number.
As for the AudioWorx, there's little information about them on the web.

As for the TOA HX5 - might not be the best application for your room.

Our sanctuary is similarly shaped to yours. Though I'm not a big fan of Bose™, they sound pretty good for us, especially when voiced correctly.

http://pro.bose.com/ProController?ur...anaray502a.jsp

C.

[terryd]

The speakers by the sound company are EAW VR21 and VR61 speakers.

One question:

Our dimensions are 90ft wide x 45ft deep x 21ft high (I guess it could be broken into 2 sections 45 x 45, though).
Presuming we take into cosideration 90ft wide, with 120degree horizontal dispersion, it is safe to say then that these will STILL do the job for us?

T

[Gracetech]

What is the ceiling height of the back rooms?

Is the mounting location of the speakers negotiable?

What is the lowest possible mounting height?

I'm sure aesthetics are a big issue here but if you can get some leeway on the speaker location it would be easy to cover the room with very few boxes.

Also what type of budget are you working with. This above all will dictate what you can go with.

It's a sad day indeed when Cory has to pull out the Bose card.

crt

[cmchamp]

I was hoping that the VR series were the ones suggested by your DB firm. It would be great, however, if they could provide you with EASE or Ulysses models of the room.
Chad - you know I'm not a great big Bose™ fan, but they're tools just like the EAW VR series, and the 502A with the 502B bass bins can actually sound pretty good when installed properly with enough power and voiced correctly.
According to the drawing that "T" attached, there is a bulk-head that the sliding partitions rides in on the overflow rooms, so that's going to be an issue.
Another question regarding the overflow rooms, since they will be used for classrooms, will they require their own AV systems such as display and speakers for Sunday School material?
C.

[Brad Weber]

No disrespect and I say this primarily so others can avoid ending up in the same situation, but are the air conditioning, electrical, lighting, etc. systems being designed after the building is almost done with the design coming via free input from forums? Or were those designed by paid design professionals much earlier in the process? I just don't understand churches that do not consider all of the building systems, which includes audio, video, lighting and acoustics, as an integral part of the design process. Okay, now that I got that out...

I'm trying to understand the space a bit better because the drawing provided seem to disagree with some of the comments. For one, based on the dimensions on the drawings it looks like the Sanctuary is basically a 70'x70' square with a large stage area in one corner and the opposite corner cut off, I'm not seeing where the 45' and 90' dimensions noted apply. You also noted that the speakers would about 5' in front of the stage which seems to be where the peak might be located if the ceiling is peaked. Is the ceiling simply a flat 21' ceiling or does the height vary? Finally, I do not see the operable or movable partitions referenced, maybe it has changed but the walls for the classrooms are drawn as fixed walls. As an aside, in either case I would make sure to consider the sound isolation provided by those walls if you plan on using the Sanctuary and Classrooms simultaneously. Oh, and if those are operable partitions that may dramatically limit the acoustical treatment options for those wall surfaces, which would be significant since those walls seem to represent most of the available 'rear' wall surface at ear level.

Looking at the drawings there are some things that appear very typical of projects where the audio is addressed late in the project. For example, I don't see any obvious mix position or equipment space, which often indicates that conduit or power may also not have been addressed. I hope they have been or you may be ripping out brand new work and paying to have it redone. I see what appears to be a projection screen in front of what looks like a baptistry, but don't know if that might affect speaker positions or if anyone has considered the screen size, viewing angles, etc. related to that.

As to the speakers, locating the speakers where noted does present some challenges as while it gets the speakers in front of the stage, it also would make for a greater than 180 degree audience area. I do believe the one manufacturer is WorxAudio rather than Audioworx, but for any of the speakers listed the question is not just what models are proposed but how they propose to implement them. That includes not only the quantity of boxes, where they are located, how they are arrayed and aimed, etc., but if it might differ between options, also what processing and amplification is involved.

You mentioned being a more traditional service, but will you put the piano or any of the other instruments through the audio system or want to playback full range music? And might you have special events or at some point consider a more contemporary service? These issues could definitely affect the speaker system, especially the possible use of subwoofers, and it is much better to consider this now and to have a system you can grow into if that is in the plans rather than to install a new system that potentially limits your options.

[hoosierdraft]

Plain and simple: hire a design firm to consult on this! Advice here might be free but I doubt that you didn't spend money with an architectural firm for your building design? Spend your AVL dollars once using a comprehensive design rather than several times trying to get it right.

[cmchamp]

IMHO, the reason why a sound contractor recommends one brand or the other is because that's what they sell and that's how they make their money. They aren't necessarily recommending those two brands because they are what will work best in that space.

[terryd]

-- Gracetech --
- Ceiling hieght of back rooms are 40w x 25d x 12h.
- Yes, location of speakers is negotiable
- In diagram, the sound booth is located at center - back of auditorium...directly in front of stage....it is built above lobby area.
- Entire budget is around $20-25K (incl. mics, speakers, subs, etc) - we're looking at Yam LS9 and Roland V-Mix systems for consoles

-- cmchamp --
- overfloow rooms *will* require delay speakers for main house sound only. no AV requirements for SS material, etc.
- agree sound company recommendations based on what THEY sell....we have approached 2 different sound contractors in town -- and *both* started recommending high-end line arrays - we're down to EAWs / Worx speakers as options now. (HX5's are recommended from out of town sound company - friends of pastor)

-- brad --
- correct about the 70x70 room. the 90x45 measurements i listed are based on the main seating area only. 45ft is from front of pulpit to back of aud. 90ft is based on seating area from left and right classrooms (not inside classroom but rather just outside of them).
- this diagrams DOES show fixed walls however they have been removed and movable partitions will be installed on tracks. (note: classrooms / aud will *not* be used at same time.
- sound booth is located behind center seating area *above* lobby (see additional attached diagram). 3 x 3" conduit is installed under floor between stage / sound booth area
- projector w/ long throw lens will be installed in soundbooth. based on measurements, we feel there will be no issue with speakers in way of projected content
- piano / orchestra will be played thru mains -- still trying to determine HOW organ will play thru mains (Hammond C-3 tube type).

Further discussion with local sound company, we're considering the following:
- center speaker(s) angled down into center of floor
- side fills (possibly flown or on stage) for far right and far left seating areas
- small "wedge" speakers (on delay) mounted to underside of each classroom
- dual 18" subs under stage
- choir monitor connect to back of center speaker(s) pointing down to choir

Attached diagram shows soffit above platform area. We anticipated flying speakers in front of soffit. Soffit is only extends 2ft down from ceiling. There is thinking to install choir monitor behind the soffit instead of attaching to center speaker.

Diagram also shows how we arrived at approx 90w x 45d x 22h

There's discussion of possibly moving pulpit area back into stage further (this will be a removable pulpit area for weddings, etc)

Aud ceiling is completely flat. Aud floor is flat (no elevation).

Sound booth in diagram is approx 23ft wide and is open to aud. (no glass).

Again I appreciate the input & suggestions.

Last question: can anyone recommend how to connect Hammond C-3 (tube) organ to main sound? We've looked at connection - 5-pin plug (if that helps?)

Thanks,

T