Ethics with dealing with Contractors

[BPoese]

We are building out the lower level of our church. It's an unfinished basement and we want to build a few classrooms, a small conference center, a youth room, an exercise room, and a video teleconference room.

I asked 3 AV contractors to bid on the AV portions of this build. I was not sure how to go about doing some of the things I wanted so I let that up to the contractors to decide. Naturally I got 3 very different proposals.

What I would like to do is to go back to the 3 companies and say, ok – I like this idea for the conference room, and this idea for the exercise room is great, forget about the youth room because I can hang a flat screen TV myself, etc…

Is that “ethical”? Since company A had a great idea on how to deal with the low ceiling yet be able to project the PowerPoint on the wall. Is it ok for me to ask company B to bid on that technique? (By technique I mean, using a Brightlink projector instead of a standard projector hung from the ceiling. I guess it's more of a choice of what equipment they wanted to use.)

I don’t want to deal with 3 different companies working on three different areas of the lower level. I do want one company, but I really do not like all of the suggestions that any one of the companies came up with.
Thanks
Bruce

[cmchamp]

Bruce
I've had to do that before as a contractor - re-bid.
Basically, from my point of view, if I want the work, I'll bid to YOUR specifications.
If I can't bid the "technique" you request, I have two choices.
1: don't bid and take myself out of a possible paying gig
2: figure out a way to obtain required hardware to meet your technique need.

Even though you're in MD, I'd love the work!

C.

[bggowing]

What you're wanting to do is develop an RFP (request for proposal) document where you outline what you want done in sufficient detail that all 3 companies will be bidding on the same work. That way you'll be able to directly compare costs. It's more effort on your part but it goes a long way toward having the vendors cost out the work.

[prochlea]

As a contractor - I'd say that approach is frustrating. You're sort of taking the design for free and trying to get someone else to do it cheaper. Granted - it's the contractor's own fault for giving away that information for free, but I've been in that situation, and its frustrating.

In my mind - the best course of action would be to go back to the company that had the best ideas, and work with them to refine your proposal. That way - you're giving the person who really put some thought into it a better shot at winning your business.

While they may have given it to you in a proposal, the design is sort of their intellectual property. The proposals that I send out actually state that the design is ours until they have signed a contract, and that they aren't to take this design to another contractor. If they want to pay me for the design, I'll gladly let them re-bid my design. That way at least I've covered the costs of the time that I spent on it.

[[Admin] osborn4]

We almost did that. We got a proposal from a design/build firm. Then we took that equipment list and got another bid.

But then we thought about what we were doing and decided to check with the original bidder. They said that they knew that was a risk that they took, but hoped we'd make the decision based on service and everything, not just bottom line pricing.

We did get another bid from a mail order company on the equipment, but then we would have had to hire a contractor to get it installed and set up.

And we really didn't feel right about using the design for free, so we ended up going with the original bidder. And we've not regretted that decision.

[tpichler]

I really agree with prochlea.

More specifically, if you go with contractor A's design for room1 and contractor B's design for room2 but you want contractor C to do all the work then I think you should be willing to pay contractor A and contractor B for their design work. If they are not willing to sell their design work without their services then you should not share the design or have contractor C use those designs.

As a small business owner myself I know that the best thing I have to offer is my intellectual property. I want to share my ideas freely with a potential client but I don't expect them to steal my idea and get somebody else to do the work. Don't forget that things don't always go according to plan. If contractor C did not have the resources available to come up with the idea, will they be able to resolve the implementation surprises.

P.S. You don't need to feel bad about using Gods money to pay the contractors. There are some good references for workers deserving their wages. (Luke 10:7, 1 Tim 5:18, Mat 10:10)

[tdangelo]

Originally Posted by BPoese

What I would like to do is to go back to the 3 companies and say, ok – I like this idea for the conference room, and this idea for the exercise room is great, forget about the youth room because I can hang a flat screen TV myself, etc…

Bpoese,

I would encourage you not to share any vendor’s concepts, design, ideas, budget, etc.; either as theirs, or yours, with a competitor to that vendor. A vendors proposal should be treated as privilaged information.

It would have been best for you to specify the exact criteria that each vendor was quoting on. But that could not be done at that point in time for whatever reason.

Now, I think the only fair way to get the three vendors to issue revised proposals is either for you to write a new specification and a revised RFP, which would need to be adequately different from the other vendors concepts, design, ideas, budget, etc.; or hire a consultant to create a design specification (only) which all three vendors can quote on from a competitively equal basis.

[Brad Weber]

It has already been pretty well covered but I will say this is common and on multiple occasions I have been asked to help churches resolve such discrepancies, a difficult task since not only are the bidders often provided quite different information but sometimes the last one in benefits from questions asked by those before them. I also agree that there are aspects other than the technology to consider

In relation to telling them that you will handle some of the install, there are some areas where that may be a very good way of saving money and others where you may not always get you the savings you expect or it could actually cost you. If they are not installing a flat panel display then the Contractor charge more for the display and mount and/or may exclude it from any system testing, warranty, etc. That may not make sense at face value but along with not getting any income and profit on the related installation, what can happen is that at some point someone assumes the Contractor installed it and be it expectations to support it or it potentially affecting references, there may be some indirect associated cost for the Contractor. So you may be better off to ask how something like that might affect the numbers than to assume it will make any significant reduction. You also want to be careful of defining exactly what you do expect them to do in relation to anything you install.

On the 'video teleconference' room, this is one area where I have encountered a wide variation in what may be intended or expected, including not only the audio and video technology but also the physical space, lighting, acoustics and finishes.

While they have advantages in certain applications I'm not clear how a BrightLink projector would work with a low ceiling situation as I believe they require quite a bit of clearance above the screen. Is the concept to have a higher ceiling near the screen for the depth required for the projector and mount? Or is the benefit more a matter of avoiding a projector at a lower height out in the audience area?

[Esoteric]

Yeah, that is why I unfortunately now charge for my design services, with the design fee able to be applied toward the equipment/install. My prices are low, but I do provide service above and beyond the large companies, and so they are not always the "lowest" and I got a rash of large companies undercutting me (and selling the equipment at or below cost) in an attempt to get more business later because they didn't have to do any design work, just put together a price list (luckily my supplier locally came to me and told me that someone has been shopping a price list of mine and contacted him directly trying to get better pricing or I would have never thought about someone doing that).

Mike

[BPoese]

For the conference room Company A proposed the Brightlink projection system which would work well since the ceiling above the "stage" is almost 11 feet high while the remaining ceiling is barely 9 feet high. Company B suggested using 50" LCD screen which in my opinon is too small for a room that is 38 feet deep. Company C suggested to hang the projector on the 9 foot ceiling. To me only Company A suggested something that would work.

Do I go back to Companies B & C and tell them I don't like their suggestion and to come up with something different and let them try to read my mind about what I want (or at least what think I want as of right now)? Or do I go back to them and say I want something like a Brightlink projection system - give me you proposals for something like that?

Company A also proposed many high end quailty items that we do not need. In another room they suggested a Christie projector. There is nothing there that I can see that would require a high end projector like that. Yes they did come very close to our "proposed over-all budget" but yet I need to be a good steward to our church. If I can keep this under budget, I've got to do that.

And then why would it be "ethical" for me to tell Company A I want a cheaper projector like Company B & C proposed but not ok for me to tell Company B & C that I want a Brightlink projection system like what Company A proposed?

I am struggling with this and I really do appreciate all of your comments that you have made. I have read and studied all of them. I appreciate the time and thought and effort you have put into your replies. Thank you so much for helping me to learn from this expereince.

Bruce

[cmchamp]

Do you need the interactive capabilities of a short throw, or ultra short throw projector such as the Epson Brightlink, or do you need the "smart" features?
Many other manufacturers make short throw and ultra short throw projectors. What's important is that the projector meets or exceeds your expectations for crispness, image size, color quality, contrast and brightness at expected and unexpected light levels.

[BPoese]

Yes we do want the "Smarts" too. The other two companies that suggested the other projectors included "Smart -podium monitors" that you can draw on and is projected on the the screen or LCD.