Some ideas on speaker placement

[cmchamp]

Any way to move your vocalist to just in front of the chancel step? Though this would place them in the plane of the speakers, it's better than in front of them.
Additionally, has any thought been given to providing handicap access to the chancel by way of a ramp across the front?
C.

[tdangelo]

Wogster,

As accommodating as you may want to be to a singer who has a disability you certainly do not want to make poor PA design choices based on that one factor ( or any one factor for that matter ).

Maybe a reasonable solution would be a ramp to the stage? Or have the one singer off-stage and the rest of the band on-stage. As much as I cringe at the second suggestion, if you are willing to make adjustments and compromises for this individual (as the church should) why should that result in the entire band being off-stage and in a poor sound reinforcement area? Seems to me that this should be reviewed for a potential tail-wagging-the-dog scenario. If you offer the singer reasonable accomodating options and their response is "no" or "I'll quit" then ultimately it was their decision to sing by themselves or quit.

Regarding your thought of clustering two speakers together, center stage, facing one a bit left and the other a bit right (assumingly to achieve some stereo imaging), please note that sound emanating from speakers will have a stereo field only inches from the speakers. A single center cluster will sound mono, no matter how much you attempt to aim the cabinet(s) or feed separate source material to the two speakers.

The only time the center cluster will ever sound stereo is to the one guy up on the manlift, 1' away from the speakers when you test the new cluster.

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by waynehoskins

If that oddball arrangement is set in stone and not changing any time in the foreseeable future, I might be inclined to do two independent loudspeaker systems, a separate one for the band.

That was my immediate reaction to the pictures, at some point the concept may have been for the set of speakers in the corners to reproduce any audio that was not live with the ones out front supporting the live audio or a mix. Sort of either a split music/vocals approach or a monitor/mains approach.

[cmchamp]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

That was my immediate reaction to the pictures, at some point the concept may have been for the set of speakers in the corners to reproduce any audio that was not live with the ones out front supporting the live audio or a mix. Sort of either a split music/vocals approach or a monitor/mains approach.

Which could work if all processed and delayed accordingly.

[wogster]

Originally Posted by cmchamp

Any way to move your vocalist to just in front of the chancel step? Though this would place them in the plane of the speakers, it's better than in front of them.
Additionally, has any thought been given to providing handicap access to the chancel by way of a ramp across the front?
C.

A ramp, needs to have a 12/1 pitch, by law here (for every unit up, it needs to be 12 units long) and that makes a ramp impractical. There are 3 stairs which are 7.5" high each, that means a total of 22.5" meaning a ramp would need to be 22.5' long. You need a 3' square turning area top and bottom to enter a ramp, making the total space some 28'6". The proscenium is 20'.

What I have thought is to move the digital piano to the platform stage left, and put 2 singers on that side, and then the one with the mobility issue at the bottom of the stairs, with an even spacing between the microphones. Occasionally we do some drama, and that means moving everything around again.....

[wogster]

Originally Posted by Brad Weber

That was my immediate reaction to the pictures, at some point the concept may have been for the set of speakers in the corners to reproduce any audio that was not live with the ones out front supporting the live audio or a mix. Sort of either a split music/vocals approach or a monitor/mains approach.

I doubt it, the cable runs out from under the stage, to the in jack on the front speaker, then a second cable runs from the out jack that speaker to the rear speaker's in jack. Not the way I would wire it up, but I didn't do the initial installation. A bigger issue then the singers whom I can, to some degree move, is the fact that there is a speaker behind the projector screen, which I would like to see out of that corner. The issue is, if I am getting new speakers next year, I would like them in the positioned to get the best sound.

I'll propose moving the singers to have one or two on the platform maybe with the piano and then have the one on the bottom. Which makes the cabling less of a trip hazard as well. I'm thinking a centre cluster might work the best, I need to take my good flashlight over and have a good look at the wiring, I have a feeling that the left and right go into a Y connection after the compressor and fed into channel A on the amp, and the monitor is plugged into channel B on the amp, because otherwise there should be a second amplifier for the monitors, because they do not have power connections.

[wogster]

Originally Posted by wogster

One of the singers, has mobility issues and has told me, that moving them to the stage will mean they quit, I have two singers (mostly) in the winter time, and gain one more when the snowbirds return in the spring, so I can't afford to lose one who is around in the winter time.

What I was thinking was to fly two speakers, one for the left channel, pointing slightly left, and the other on the right channel, pointing slightly right, then possibly using a couple of additional speakers where the rearward ones are as fills for the back corners, these could be smaller and would match the upper ones for the channels.

I need to do some sound checking, I have a feeling it's actually mono now and that they use the second channel on the amp for the monitors. Of course nothing, if you crawl into the space where it's all located is marked. I plan on doing some testing on it, taking a channel and panning hard left or hard right and seeing if the channels are actually separated. Currently the only stereo input is the computer and it's fed into a single 1/4" plug....

I found a note in the manual for the amplifier, channel A is the mains and Channel B is the monitors, so the system is actually mono. Now the question becomes, how many speakers to fly, one, two or three? I guess the question is, how wide a space does a flown speaker cover width wise. Installation note, it is impossible to see in the photos, there is a ceiling fan near the front, I would want to fly the speaker(s) lower then that ceiling fan to minimize it influencing the sound as it turns. I was thinking 3 speakers, one aimed slightly left of centre, one aimed at the centre and one aimed right of centre, this would replace the current 4 speakers on the walls.

[waynehoskins]

Originally Posted by wogster

I found a note in the manual for the amplifier, channel A is the mains and Channel B is the monitors, so the system is actually mono. Now the question becomes, how many speakers to fly, one, two or three? I guess the question is, how wide a space does a flown speaker cover width wise. Installation note, it is impossible to see in the photos, there is a ceiling fan near the front, I would want to fly the speaker(s) lower then that ceiling fan to minimize it influencing the sound as it turns. I was thinking 3 speakers, one aimed slightly left of centre, one aimed at the centre and one aimed right of centre, this would replace the current 4 speakers on the walls.

Some common nominal widths for horns (which are then nominally applied to the entire cabinet), in degrees, involve the numbers 40, 45, 50, 60, 70, 90, and 100, in some combination. Some of the more common over time are 60x40, 90x40, 90x60, 60 conical, 100 conical. Many loudspeakers that are designed to array will have 60 as one of the numbers, and many of those horns can be rotated.

There are many factors involved in system design, but a basic concept is the radial array, where you have an array of loudspeakers, sometimes tight-packed together, sometimes exploded, located about a common center point, their patterns blending appropriately together at the edges, so the entire array behaves as a point source with a common origin. A complete system may be made of one or more of these arrays designed to cover the audience space, often with additional fill loudspeakers or systems to cover areas the main arrays miss.

I think two or three cabinets in a center cluster might be appropriate, without running any numbers. If you have to fly very low, you may need additional fill speakers for the back of the room.

[wogster]

Originally Posted by waynehoskins

Some common nominal widths for horns (which are then nominally applied to the entire cabinet), in degrees, involve the numbers 40, 45, 50, 60, 70, 90, and 100, in some combination. Some of the more common over time are 60x40, 90x40, 90x60, 60 conical, 100 conical. Many loudspeakers that are designed to array will have 60 as one of the numbers, and many of those horns can be rotated.

There are many factors involved in system design, but a basic concept is the radial array, where you have an array of loudspeakers, sometimes tight-packed together, sometimes exploded, located about a common center point, their patterns blending appropriately together at the edges, so the entire array behaves as a point source with a common origin. A complete system may be made of one or more of these arrays designed to cover the audience space, often with additional fill loudspeakers or systems to cover areas the main arrays miss.

I think two or three cabinets in a center cluster might be appropriate, without running any numbers. If you have to fly very low, you may need additional fill speakers for the back of the room.

Height isn't a real problem, the ceiling fan, is about 4' off the ceiling, which is about 35' so I should be able to fly at least 30' without any problems. The amplifier we have, is a Yamaha P4500, which is 450watts per channel, so there should be lots of room there as well. What I need at this point is numbers I can take to a supplier and say, I need a quote for this......

[Brad Weber]

Originally Posted by wogster

What I need at this point is numbers I can take to a supplier and say, I need a quote for this......

Why not let them look at the application and offer solutions? I suggest this for a few reasons. One reason is that flying speakers involves many factors including coordination with the existing structure, determining cabling paths, assessing any aesthetic issues, figuring out what is required to physically install the speakers (scaffolding, lifts, etc.) and so on. I would not trust a quote for flown speakers from anyone who had not spent some time looking at the actual field conditions. Another reason is that what a company recommends and how they arrive at that recommendation may give some insights into the company and their approach, the quality of their work, the kind of support you may expect, etc.

The greatest challenge seems to be having the band and especially the vocalists virtually in the listener area. This not only skews an otherwise symmetrical space but also creates a situation where you have listeners who need coverage just a couple of feet from open microphones in front of those listeners. It also means that a flow center array may not be the best solution. The idea of moving the singers onto the stage is good, but I'm not sure that segregating the one handicapped vocalist by herself is so good or the message you want to project.

That segues to the challenge of room acoustics. You seem to have acoustically reflective pews, walls and ceiling surfaces, which can be problematic with amplified music and speech. The small stage/Chancel space and surrounding surfaces could also create some interesting acoustical issues, you might want to try the singers and piano performing from that area before committing to it.

Another challenge is the balcony. Whether you try to cover the main floor and balcony with the same speaker or provide separate coverage of the balcony is always a consideration but in your case it may be an even greater consideration due to the room finishes and dimensions, which may make it difficult to get good coverage of the balcony seating and not have a significant amount of energy hitting the reflective rear and side walls.

My recommendation is to sit down with the church leadership and figure out what the long term goals are for music and media. You don't necessarily have to implement a long term plan all at once but it can help that whatever you do implement supports a long term plan. For example, it may be worth considering a change to the Chancel/stage to allow more room and better acoustics, sightlines, etc. for performers. If such a change might be considered then it may make sense to consider that in whatever you do for the audio system.

You might also want to try to identify a budget for the initial work. If there will be budgetary constraints then it may be good to have some idea of what those are before pursuing potential solutions or quotes. It's not going to help anyone to get quotes that companies offer in good faith only to then have you all find out that the budget available doesn't come close to supporting what is proposed.

[cmchamp]

In addition to Brad's remarks, which reflect what I would have recommended based on your request for "numbers," even thought this may seem a "small" job, you really should get a consultant in who can assess the situation in person, especially the acoustical considerations. Bringing in the local music store guy, or even a regional contractor or design/build person may result in more of the same - misapplied tools and methods.
C

[wogster]

Originally Posted by cmchamp

In addition to Brad's remarks, which reflect what I would have recommended based on your request for "numbers," even thought this may seem a "small" job, you really should get a consultant in who can assess the situation in person, especially the acoustical considerations. Bringing in the local music store guy, or even a regional contractor or design/build person may result in more of the same - misapplied tools and methods.
C

One of the issues, finding a consultant is easy, the problem is they are in the big city, which is about 200 miles away. Probably cost $500 to get them to take a look and that would eat a lot out of my budget. The congregation consists of about 30 people and the average age is 70+. The balcony isn't being used and can't legally be used at this point, the whole front needs to be taken off and redone, and depending on what they do at that time, would affect how the sound is dealt with. I'm ignoring it at this point, that will be in my report, they can deal with it, when they fix the balcony.

I just need to know how to cover the main level and how many and how powerful a speaker(s) will get decent or better sound.